The Great Prescription Skip Debate ---------------------------------------------------------------- Chapter 1 - Discovery: http://pastebin.com/uxWcRhka Chapter 2 - It Begins: http://pastebin.com/wRsNmmhP Chapter 3 - Analysis: http://pastebin.com/iuStxa0J Chapter 4 - Challenger: http://pastebin.com/AuNF3GhC Chapter 5 - Ideas: http://pastebin.com/7SaRZAvA ---------------------------------------------------------------- [23:08] <@Cosmo> if we didnt label "WR" we could separate N64, VC, GCN, iQue, and emulators [23:08] <@Cosmo> into separate tables [23:08] <@jiano> down with separate tables [23:09] <%RingRush> down with separate tables [23:09] <@Cosmo> what about the option to split the tables [23:09] <@Cosmo> filtering language etc [23:09] <%RingRush> filters are the future [23:09] <@Cosmo> like what ZSR tries to do but kinda doesnt do good enough [23:09] i dont like the idea with sepearate tables- it'd be complicated and cluttered for people new to speedrunning [23:09] i dont even know about filters [23:09] <%RingRush> separate tables are the stone age [23:09] filtering is good [23:09] <+zodiac> i dont like seperate tables [23:09] <+zodiac> filtering owns though [23:09] <%RingRush> dude some thing where you toggle a button that says "english" [23:09] i like filtering [23:09] maybe if u could submit multiple runs for same category, different versions? [23:09] <%RingRush> and all the times that aren't on english get grayed out [23:09] and they are all hidden unless u split tables [23:09] <@jiano> yeah, put themn all together, and have filter options [23:09] <%RingRush> and the numbers get readjusted [23:09] <%RingRush> would look sick [23:09] cause when i split alttp by us version [23:09] its just like [23:09] <+zodiac> boris i think maxx wanted a feature like that [23:10] i agree with with jiano [23:10] i suddenly have the best (usually only) time [23:10] lol [23:10] <+zodiac> you could submit more than 1 time but it would only show the best time unless you filter that time out [23:10] <@jiano> emulator allowed/disallowed game by game basis [23:10] <+Kryssstal> boris: that's why falcoeagle listed your english master sword time as "WR" lollll [23:10] <@Cosmo> yea boris theres no way to submit more than 1 time for zsr at the moment [23:10] <+Kryssstal> even though master sword is faster on eng ver than jp [23:10] WHAT [23:10] zodiac that's smart [23:10] whyyyyyyyyyy [23:10] i need to have a chat with him :p [23:10] <%RingRush> if emulator is allowed at all it has to be game by game [23:10] <@Cosmo> i agree w/ zodiac [23:10] <+zodiac> why am i getting cred for this it was maxx's idea [23:10] <+zodiac> lol [23:10] <+Kryssstal> well I told him about it now [23:10] o [23:11] when you say ms is faster on eng [23:11] i think the idea of emulator not being allowed at all is probably off the table [23:11] are you talking about srl timing or sda timing [23:11] <+Kryssstal> that's actually why I bothered to find out that master sword is 3 sec faster (under sda timing!! woo timing paradigms) [23:11] <+Kryssstal> it's equal for srl [23:11] <@Cosmo> what about N64 game without VC and emu is broken [23:11] ah [23:11] <+Kryssstal> like 3 frame difference [23:11] <%RingRush> timing lol [23:11] 3 frame difference in which direction? just curious [23:11] <+Kryssstal> aside from boomdash or two, which is like 15 frames lol [23:11] <%RingRush> that is a whole nother discussion [23:11] <+Kryssstal> don't remember [23:11] since it would translate to lots of records being delegitimized on a technicality which would hurt the credibility of the leaderboards imo [23:11] dang [23:12] <+Kryssstal> basically any version is 100% fair and equal for races in lttp master sword [23:12] <+Kryssstal> a rarity for sure [23:12] you wouldn't want ppl around saying "well SRL leaderboards say X has the record but THE REAL record is held by Y" [23:12] <@Cosmo> exactly poodle [23:12] <@Cosmo> that would ruin the entire point of them [23:12] that would make it no better than SDA [23:12] <@Cosmo> yea [23:12] <+Kryssstal> except SRL people generally know more than others so I dunno why that would be an issue [23:13] in that case i think you should only limit anything very very carefully [23:13] <+Kryssstal> SDA also claims to just "archive videos" instead of host records [23:13] i can respect sda saying that but in that sense i hate the fact that they list "best time" on the game pages [23:13] <+Kryssstal> if someone looks to SDA for a record instead of looking around the actual community, that's their problem [23:13] ok, just wondering Cosmo are you planning to make srl a place to record WR for games? [23:13] ppl infer wr from that lol [23:14] <@Cosmo> well I think a lot of ppl agree we need leaderboards [23:14] <@Cosmo> and it would be fun for everybody [23:14] <@Cosmo> and we could stop having random google docs for leaderboards [23:14] <+Kryssstal> also I wouldn't recommend just putting "WR" by default for whatever run is #1 on the board [23:14] <@Cosmo> and we could point ppl to one place instead of 10 different places [23:14] <@Cosmo> yea I dont think we could do that by default [23:14] <+Kryssstal> like hotarubi wouldn't submit stuff for the games he still holds lol [23:14] ok, would there be varying people in charge for games? [23:14] Twin Galaxies does claim to host world records lol [23:14] <@Cosmo> yea they do heh [23:14] oh yeah thats one thing [23:14] like, you wouldn't be in charge of a game that you've never played before [23:14] if we know about a record are we going to put it up ourselves [23:15] <+pokey> SDA doesnt claim to have WRs [23:15] <+pokey> they told me [23:15] <@Cosmo> I wont be in charge at all [23:15] <+pokey> i tried getting my run removed and they were like "we don't host wrs so leave it up" [23:15] <+pokey> or something [23:15] <@Cosmo> who is in change = the people who run the gmae [23:15] <%mzxrules> twin galaxies has all the wrs [23:15] <+Kryssstal> twin galaxies has a literally unobtainable time listed as the wr for dkc1 btw [23:15] <+Kryssstal> it's a :28 or something [23:16] i agree, the community that runs the game should decide [23:16] <+Kryssstal> they used the map warp (skips levels) in the "all levels" category [23:16] how did that coem to be? [23:16] <@Cosmo> i have a long history with OoT and OoT seems like one of the most disconnected games for running right now so thats one reason im trying to have this discussion [23:16] lol [23:16] <+pokey> dont use TG for times [23:16] <+Kryssstal> no idea, tompa literally made a tas showing them that the record can't be obtained with frame perfect inputs [23:16] <+pokey> they are great for points [23:16] <+Kryssstal> and they didn't care [23:16] <+zodiac> ya who cares about tg outside of bill mitchell [23:16] <+pokey> he doesnt have the record anymore [23:16] <+pokey> theres an exploit to get more points [23:17] <+pokey> jumpining next to DK on the rivet stage [23:17] >exploit [23:17] thats not gonna fly with tg!! [23:17] <+zodiac> thats been around forever [23:17] <+pokey> and u get points like ur jumping over barrels [23:17] <+pokey> ya [23:17] <+pokey> but billy mitchell doesnt have the record anymore [23:17] <+pokey> because of that [23:17] Cosmo any idea when you'll implement the leaderboards? [23:17] maybe like, next to categories / versions listed on the board you could have an option exclusively for ppl who have raced the game to vote up or down on the legitimacy of the category / version or something [23:17] <%RingRush> I saw those two /s and immediately started reading it like song lyrics [23:17] <+zodiac> good fuck billy mitchell [23:17] that is pretty retarded imo [23:17] and if that cat/version reaches like less than 95% approval with at least 15 voters or something it is deleted [23:18] the reddit of speedruns [23:18] lolll [23:18] idk i'm just shooting shit out there. [23:18] what if community hate that particular person poodleskirt [23:18] <+zodiac> lol i just went on TG to look up the dk wr [23:18] <+zodiac> and theyve got a new site design [23:18] <+zodiac> still looks like a 12 year olds geocities page [23:18] but the run is legit [23:18] <%RingRush> "people who have raced the game" would be way too broad of a category for that [23:18] i don't think 95% of ppl hate me [23:18] <+pokey> billy mitchell is terrible i agree [23:18] <%RingRush> it would have to have some higher standard [23:18] <+pokey> hot wife tho [23:18] <+pokey> rlly hot wife [23:18] i think the 95% is a pretty high standard [23:18] <+zodiac> pics plz [23:18] Than what about [23:18] <+Kryssstal> 4:58:02 Demon9 comment, rate, subscribe, +1 [23:19] <+pokey> have you not seen king of kong? [23:19] 95% than it gets pushed for a SRL op to check [23:19] yeah, something like that fenrikaz [23:19] lol [23:19] obviously it can't be deleted outright [23:19] <%RingRush> hopefully this starts small [23:19] i dont think it should ever get to that point [23:19] <@Cosmo> i think that upvote thing sounds more complex than its worth [23:19] <%RingRush> since this is going to take a huge staff if it ever gest big [23:19] yeah cosmo that crossed my mind [23:19] <@Cosmo> ringrush : yes i think at first it would only allow a very small amount of games and categories [23:19] <@Cosmo> and could slowly expand [23:19] <@Cosmo> as we're sure what the rules / categories should be [23:20] <+pokey> idk i thought she looked different in the movie [23:20] <%RingRush> what would be the standard at the start [23:20] just do like, if a game is popular then the game would get its own group of leaders [23:20] to dicate the rules/categories [23:20] <%RingRush> a certain amount of races on srl? [23:20] <+Kryssstal> interest in leaderboards is certainly there though, look at how this picked up in the course of like a week or whatever http://deertier.com/RealTime.aspx [23:20] <%RingRush> or approval of some srl streamer? or something [23:20] <@Cosmo> games without controversy would be easy enough to add [23:20] <@Cosmo> yea kryssstal [23:20] <@Cosmo> ppl want leaderboards [23:20] <+pokey> where will you host this [23:20] <+pokey> ZSR?????? [23:20] <@Cosmo> but I think making like 100 different sites, wikis, and google docs is sort of bad [23:20] <@Cosmo> we could unify it [23:21] <%RingRush> dkspeeedruns.com [23:21] <%RingRush> was made just to have leaderboards [23:21] <+pokey> that site rules [23:21] <+Kryssstal> lol [23:21] <+pokey> thats the first site that comes up when i type "d" on chrome [23:21] <+zodiac> speedrunslive.com/leaderboards [23:21] <+zodiac> plz [23:21] <@Cosmo> ya [23:21] <+pokey> zsr should host all the leaderboards [23:21] that would be nice [23:22] so yeah... i think the only things that should be banned from those leaderboards are things the players of the game pretty much unanimously agree should be banned [23:23] controversial rules are solved by the filtering [23:23] outside of that just let the circlejerk ride [23:24] <+zodiac> ya pretty much agreed with poodle [23:24] <%RingRush> you'ld ahve to be able to submit multiple times though [23:24] <%RingRush> for thign like Super Metroid w/, w/o GT Code [23:24] <@Cosmo> yea [23:24] <%RingRush> that is controversial [23:24] <@Cosmo> well those would be separate categories [23:24] <+Kryssstal> GT code is just a separate category [23:24] <+Kryssstal> lol [23:24] yeah, if you don't filter just list the top time, problem solved [23:24] ^zodiacs idea [23:25] <%RingRush> dude, tsc style color codes [23:25] <%RingRush> are so good [23:25] <%RingRush> coloring by percentile somehow makes improving way more fun lol [23:25] <+zodiac> is the gt thing in super metroid actually a code [23:25] <+zodiac> i thought it was some weird glitch [23:25] <+Kryssstal> probably a debug thing [23:25] <+zodiac> didnt it only get found a year or two ago [23:26] <+Kryssstal> yea [23:26] NARPASSWORD v2 [23:26] so.... you still need jp n64 cart or emu to do fastest oot 100%? [23:27] <+zodiac> yes [23:27] <+zodiac> does it really matter though [23:27] or just be a baus on VC [23:27] <+zodiac> you need vc for fastest every other category [23:27] <+Kryssstal> also Cosmo I assume stuff like the mega man X collection wouldn't be allowed? [23:27] <+Kryssstal> a rerelease of the game that eliminates lag [23:27] Zodiac you mean iQue right. Lol [23:27] <@Cosmo> thats similar to VC, idk how that would work, it would basically depend on the mmx players [23:28] <+zodiac> doesnt megamanx collection not display properly on modern tv [23:28] <@Cosmo> im in no position to judge that [23:28] <+zodiac> s [23:28] <+Runnerguy2489> guys [23:28] <+Kryssstal> no idea [23:28] MMX2 vc actually has proper CX4 emulation I think [23:28] <+Runnerguy2489> in 10 years nintendo will release a version of oot [23:28] <+Kryssstal> but it's not a release of the "same game" like VC is [23:28] <+zodiac> i know theres some megaman game that doesnt work right on 480p [23:28] <+Runnerguy2489> where you press START to skip cutscenes [23:28] <+Runnerguy2489> and all your problems will be solved [23:28] x1 should be allowed imo [23:28] <+zodiac> could u imagine tho rg... [23:28] <@Cosmo> @RG they probably will lol [23:28] x2 and x3 idk ask ygg [23:28] <+zodiac> capcom did that with re2/3 on gamecube and naturally those versions are rare as fuck and cost like $80 [23:29] <+Kryssstal> does x1 XC play like the snes version then? [23:29] you could sell that for $80? [23:29] I should sell mine... [23:29] no but it has the save screen after each level lol [23:29] so the gain becomes almost nothing [23:29] <+Kryssstal> lol [23:29] <+Kryssstal> well if you're playing a version of the game that's that different, like a gba version, shouldn't it be a different thing anyway (or not listed at all) [23:30] <+Kryssstal> lttp gba being on leaderboards would be bad because people would begin to care more about it probably [23:30] <@Cosmo> this is sort of why separate tables are needed for certain things [23:30] <+Kryssstal> it's just a different game [23:30] <+Kryssstal> like sm64 ds [23:30] xc has its own game lol [23:30] people just forget about it [23:31] <+Runnerguy2489> I like the idea of seperate tables [23:31] <@Cosmo> yea like we COULD have separate tables for all versions but idk [23:32] <@Cosmo> N64-U Any% table lol [23:32] <@Cosmo> but there would be so many [23:32] <+Runnerguy2489> then you'd have like GC [23:32] <+Runnerguy2489> with 2 entries ever [23:32] <@Cosmo> yep [23:32] please dont use tables, unless it's for arbitrary categories [23:32] just use filters [23:32] my time would go in the n64-u any% table :) [23:32] <+Kryssstal> HTML Tables, by Garrison [23:33] <+zodiac> the only way youd need seperate tables is if a game version came out thats totally different [23:33] <+zodiac> like oot vs oot 3d [23:33] <%RingRush> n64-u-1.0/1.1, n64-u-1.2 for 101% [23:33] <%RingRush> er [23:33] <%RingRush> 100% [23:33] <%RingRush> damnit I do that for every game now [23:33] <%RingRush> (oot) [23:33] looooooool [23:33] <%mzxrules> why use 1.2 for 100% [23:34] that might be all you have [23:34] becuase some people only have VC [23:34] and 1.2 is the only thing available [23:34] <%RingRush> all I have is n64 1.2 [23:34] <%RingRush> so if you create seperate charts for all versions [23:34] <%RingRush> you better create a 1.2 chart [23:34] <%RingRush> which is stupid [23:34] <@Cosmo> yea [23:34] <%RingRush> especially because not everyone knows what version they have [23:35] well thats not a hard thing to tell [23:35] <%RingRush> and splitting by console or language is just that to a lesser extent [23:35] just make one table for each game with the categories as the top filters. [23:35] only reason to make separate tables for separate categories is to... like... further separate them... or something [23:35] if you are serious about 100% [23:35] you will probably run on n64 [23:35] <@Cosmo> if you would initially see all the categories combined that is weird [23:35] <@Cosmo> SM64, best time is 7 min by funila [23:36] so the n64 times probably deserve to be at the top [23:36] <+Kryssstal> mixing categories is the worst idea ever [23:36] ya i dont even think that should be discussed Cosmo lol [23:36] lol sorry for saying the worst idea ever [23:36] keep the diff categories in separate tables [23:36] but [23:36] the different versions etc within the same category [23:36] i thought it was pretty good. [23:36] filters [23:37] well since the 100% routes are so different [23:37] bleh [23:37] boris nice idea [23:37] why not just make two categories, with prescription skip and without? [23:37] prescription skip is not enough of a difference for someone to want to watch without [23:37] <%RingRush> SM64: Categories: Beat the game (0 Star), 100% (120 star), no BLJ (170 star), I can't even think of a proper name for this (16 star) | Filters: Region -U- -J- -E-, Console -N64- -VC-, Version -1.0- -1.1- (do versions exist for sm64?) [23:37] Heroof. There is already like a Billion OoT catagories [23:37] <+cafde> why not just make 2 mst routes, one with wrong warps and one without [23:38] the two different categories would just be 100% on VC or 100% not on VC [23:38] it sort of takes care of itself [23:38] <@Cosmo> i feel like [23:38] <@Cosmo> for 100% [23:38] <@Cosmo> the VC ppl should switch 2 N64 [23:38] <@Cosmo> cause its the faster one [23:38] <%RingRush> yes [23:38] <@Cosmo> and makign it separate is weird [23:38] agreed [23:38] <%RingRush> down with vcheaters [23:38] if you are serious about running 100% then youll get n64 [23:38] <+zodiac> is there a real reason to keep inject banned [23:38] mainly for races [23:38] lol [23:38] stik [23:39] i don't understand that either zodiac [23:39] but uh [23:39] <%RingRush> inject and emulator should have the same fate tbh [23:39] maybe it makes a difference in any% no wrong warp [23:39] <@Cosmo> inject was banned back when nobody played on emu [23:39] i agree with ringrush [23:39] <+zodiac> like i dunno maybe back when any% was all rba 1.0 on vc was ridiculous [23:39] the special thing about inject is [23:39] <%RingRush> you can ban inject if you ban emulator [23:39] stick b [23:39] <@Cosmo> err [23:39] <@Cosmo> then VC 1.0 is now the best version for speedrunning oot 100% [23:39] <@Cosmo> which is kinda weird 2 me [23:40] and? [23:40] keep emu banning to game by game basis [23:40] oh shit lol [23:40] <@Cosmo> cause its not even a real version [23:40] <+cafde> put emu and inject in the same table and separate from the legit versions [23:40] yeah [23:40] that solves the problem doesn't it [23:40] ban that shit [23:40] <%RingRush> and vc 1.0 doesn't actually exist [23:40] <%RingRush> it is a hack [23:40] <+zodiac> yeah having an illegitimate version be the best is kinda dumb [23:40] <%RingRush> a hack shouldn't be the fastest version [23:40] <@Cosmo> right [23:40] <%RingRush> I mean taken to its extreme sm74 is a faster version of sm64 [23:40] <@Cosmo> i hear what cafde is sayin [23:40] <+Kryssstal> why would you try to play a video game fast, I like to take my time and enjoy it [23:40] i thoguht of another reason that vc inject should be banned [23:40] <@Cosmo> lol [23:41] cafde i dont think "legit versions" is the right way to put it [23:41] playing on vc but still being able to drink a fish [23:41] <%RingRush> so all sm64 players should go play on sm74 [23:41] would help some people in mst or 100% or w/e maybe [23:41] <%RingRush> or star road idk which is faster [23:41] <+cafde> sure it is [23:41] lol putting emu and inject on separate boards would be good if no one ran either of them [23:41] the inject should be banned outright imo [23:41] whoa am i the only one who didnt know theres a red rupee on the unfinished house in kak [23:41] but since they do it's the equivalent of saying "you guys can't compete. go to the back of the bus." [23:41] that's right. [23:41] i played the race card. [23:42] <+cafde> or how about get a legit version and you can sit in the front [23:42] if you have the means to play on vc 1.0 then you have the means to play on vc 1.2 [23:42] <+Kryssstal> I don't think inject is a problem if it's a "legit" version (lttp 1.0 inject) at least [23:42] <%RingRush> the "race" card means something else in this context [23:42] for alttp it is fine [23:42] for oot it is not [23:42] because vc has significant difference from n64 [23:42] <%RingRush> http://speedrunslive.com/tools/oot-bingo/?seed=795828 <-- the race card [23:42] <@jiano> oot 1.0 vc is overpowered as fuck [23:42] like, outside of lag [23:43] <@jiano> combines the best of vc with best of n64 [23:43] <@jiano> lol when i used it in races and cosmo + rg etc got mad [23:43] lol rr [23:43] now all we gotta do is get void hovers in there and its the best [23:43] <@jiano> HAHA !!!! [23:43] <@Cosmo> HEH [23:43] <@Cosmo> jiano used to wait for suns song to appear so he could turn on his GCN [23:43] <%RingRush> void hovers all over the place [23:43] <%RingRush> might as well submit to the mm boards [23:43] <@jiano> ya [23:43] <@jiano> well [23:44] <@jiano> it was more like [23:44] <@jiano> if it was any% id use n64 [23:44] <@jiano> otherwise id use gc [23:44] <@Cosmo> yea [23:44] dont you mean other way around [23:44] or is that before stick b was used [23:44] <+Runnerguy2489> this was when any% didn't use stick B and savewarping around was better lol [23:44] oh lol [23:44] <@jiano> ya [23:44] christ [23:45] <+Runnerguy2489> like 2009 strats [23:45] <@jiano> ftw [23:45] <@jiano> old well chus [23:45] jiano did you play oot on n64 for zelda420 [23:45] <+Runnerguy2489> spirit chus all day [23:45] <@jiano> hope for the best jumpslash [23:45] i literally dont remember [23:45] <+Runnerguy2489> hahaha [23:45] <+Runnerguy2489> that jumpslash [23:45] <@jiano> ya pretty sure i did [23:45] <@Cosmo> i think RG agrees that VC 1.0 as the 100% standard would be pretty silly [23:45] <+cafde> man that jumpslash [23:45] <+Runnerguy2489> yeah that'd be dumb [23:45] <@jiano> vc 1.0 being used at all is ridiclous [23:45] ^ [23:45] vc 1.0/1.1 should not be allowed period [23:46] if ur using them u have the means to use 1.2 [23:46] <+Runnerguy2489> but then, I feel like using jp VC on an english wii is iffy [23:46] what was old wellchus [23:46] I thought that's how it already was [23:46] Runnerguy2489 the thing is you can accomplish the same thing by importing a japanese wii [23:46] <+Runnerguy2489> you could but it's not done [23:46] <+zodiac> its not done cuz theres an easier way for the exact same result [23:46] <+cafde> you can also make perm changes to your wii to make it jap [23:46] <@jiano> vc 1.0 is a hacked version, nintendo didnt release dat shiet [23:46] <+Runnerguy2489> that is also illegal [23:46] <+Runnerguy2489> either way, it's so far allowed that I know that won't change [23:47] <@jiano> pretty sure oot community w ould never allow vc 1.0 [23:47] <@jiano> anyway [23:47] <@jiano> regardless [23:47] <@jiano> it caught a lot of shit even when there was like 5 of us raciing [23:47] well would how much better would vc 1.0 be than n64 and emu? [23:47] <@jiano> way better [23:48] btw [23:48] isnt there a graphics plugin for emu that lets you use stick as adult without crashing [23:48] <@Cosmo> yes [23:48] <+cafde> yeah [23:48] is that only for mupen? i remember it being discussed on tasvideos [23:49] for the ganonless route [23:50] <+Kryssstal> i'm gonna run vc 1.0 inject on project64 [23:50] pretty sure you need dolphin to do that :p [23:50] <+Kryssstal> dang [23:50] lol [23:50] <%RingRush> might as well use savestates while you're at it [23:51] and run at 1000 fps [23:51] <%RingRush> oh man now I remember [23:51] <@Cosmo> i should make mockups [23:51] <%RingRush> when hacking a bottle into your inventory with emulator was considered legitimate for races [23:51] <@Cosmo> of the leaderboards [23:51] <%RingRush> by only one person ever [23:51] <@Cosmo> and ask what looks better [23:51] who needs video/audio synch [23:51] <@jiano> dq in first race gj mrgrunz [23:51] i remember that bottle thing [23:51] <@jiano> truly a rolemodel [23:51] and people being like [23:52] "instead of dqing him, lets factor in the time it would take to get a bottle" [23:52] lmao [23:52] <%RingRush> oh wait boris is elminster what the fuck [23:52] hi [23:52] <@Cosmo> secret elm [23:52] <@Cosmo> iddint realize that wasu [23:52] :) [23:52] <%RingRush> I was like "how the hell does this new kid know about that" [23:52] <%RingRush> then I used whois [23:52] <%RingRush> and was educated [23:52] the whois master [23:53] <+cafde> it said elminster when he joined [23:53] <+cafde> and who doesn't know about boris anderson ;) [23:53] oh hey can you guys tell me how to do that nickflash thing [23:53] nicflash [23:53] or is that on SRL only [23:53] <@Cosmo> so cafde u think there should be 2 tables, one for all official releases and one for "anything goes" [23:53] on mirc? [23:53] its on a real irc client only [23:53] <%RingRush> nickflash others or get nickflasehd [23:53] so not on mibbit [23:53] <+cafde> it was a suggestion [23:53] oh okay sry idk anything about irc [23:54] <%RingRush> "anything goes" sm64 wr in 4:03 playing on sm74!! [23:54] well i'll always be on the side that 100% should be how fast you can legitimately do 100% [23:54] lol [23:54] they will be separate but equal [23:54] but the where the line on "legitamately" is doesnt help [23:54] <@Cosmo> poodle get mirc its good [23:54] okay [23:55] i think separating the boards like that would do nothing but cause more useless rift in the community. the whole point of the filter is the separation [23:55] <@Cosmo> filter seems pretty good idea [23:55] Cosmo is there any of chance that we could get a timeline for the leaderboards? [23:55] <@Cosmo> no [23:55] okay so I tested loading times and vc has a clear advantage over emu and n64, but n64 and emu have about the same in terms of loading. I have a video to support this, it is rendering right now. [23:56] wodahs what exactly were your results and how did you test them? [23:56] lag, though [23:56] the difference is over a second between the best case (vc) vs emu [23:56] <@jiano> we already know vc has faster loading [23:56] yes but I wanted to know and have a video or something [23:56] I didn't see any proof [23:56] <@jiano> lol [23:56] i think ive seen a video [23:57] and now I have da proofz [23:57] <@jiano> i remember when me and cosmo were racing gc vs vc, sittingn ext to each other, and i past him during intro [23:57] <@Cosmo> HEH [23:57] EHE [23:57] <@jiano> he was like wtf OP [23:57] who won jiano Kappa [23:57] Runnerguy did [23:58] but yeah it's like a 3 second advantage in the intro [23:58] <@jiano> i won cus cosmo forgot a key in spirit [23:58] "forgot a key" wat [23:58] <@jiano> needed one as child, but he didnt get it [23:58] <@jiano> iirc [23:58] ohh lol [23:59] <+cafde> loading zone times make only a small difference over a whole run [23:59] acutally no [23:59] I did a rough estimation for mst, which has 107 transitions [23:59] <@jiano> loading time is the reason sm64 and mm are way faster on vc than n64 [23:59] about 2 minutes lost to load times VC over EMU i think [23:59] so thats about 107 seconds vs emu and vc [23:59] not including classic controller screen [23:59] <+cafde> there's no way it's a whole second each time [23:59] wow that's like super close to my estimate lol [00:00] <@jiano> its a little less than a second [00:00] so its more like 1:30 [00:00] its a little less [00:00] well, load times are about 2 min [00:00] <+Runnerguy2489> damn man [00:00] I may have forgotten a few loading places [00:00] we were takling about load times [00:00] <+Runnerguy2489> how the fuck do I beat anyone in bingos? [00:00] not reset screens lol [00:00] <@jiano> also not all loading zones are the same [00:00] <@jiano> some are faster some are slower [00:00] yes that is also true [00:00] <@Cosmo> ok so [00:00] ganondoor is like multiple seconds difference [00:00] <+cafde> also depends if it's loading a cs too [00:01] I think lost woods vs kokiri forest was a good esitmate on the average loading zone [00:01] so that excludes cs's and everything else that may be more strenious or easier to load [00:01] <%RingRush> okay in conclusion [00:01] <%RingRush> I spent way too much time today talking about this shit oh my god [00:01] <@Cosmo> from general discussion i feel like its learning toweards: 1 table per category, with filters, the ability to submit multiple versions to 1 category, and perhaps not declaring anything as "WR" [00:02] <@Cosmo> leaning* [00:02] <@Cosmo> this is for OoT alone [00:02] <@Cosmo> not for anythin else [00:02] <%RingRush> I mean you don't actually have to write "WR" at the leaderboard [00:02] I agree [00:02] that sounds appropriate to me [00:02] <%RingRush> just rank it by a number [00:02] <%RingRush> but everyone will call it a wr [00:02] yeah i thought the WR record thing was already separate from the leaderboards [00:02] ^this and I am fine with that [00:03] how would everything compare if we just flat out banned vc injjects and had one table? would any of them have a substantial advantage? [00:03] well currently only 1.1 / 1.0 inject for 100% [00:03] that is the one thing I wish was allowed [00:03] if we just unanimously agree vc inject should be banned then it should be banned [00:03] <@Cosmo> i think currently OOT community wants to ban VC inject [00:03] <@Cosmo> as for ique idk haha [00:03] ^ [00:03] yeah [00:04] I feel like ique is soft banned out of rarity [00:04] ^ [00:04] <@Cosmo> yea pretty much [00:04] dat soft ban [00:04] I care about 100% and I am raw about having to switch to emulator or n64 which I for me crashes randomly [00:04] what about banning emulator for 100% [00:04] Someone's dissertation project is going to be making a stable iQue emulator one day [00:04] if I want the best route [00:04] <@Cosmo> i dont think ppl will be convinced to ban emu for 100% [00:04] <@Cosmo> too much disagreement [00:04] hm [00:04] the fact that banning emu for 100% is contravercial means it shouldn't be banned [00:05] uhh yeah what cosmo said [00:05] emu is fine imo [00:05] <+zodiac> having to switch versions to go faster shouildnt be a reason for banning anything [00:05] <+zodiac> i have to play ntsc because pal is shit, lets ban ntsc [00:05] <@Cosmo> true [00:05] i think that a 100% record on emulator [00:05] would be really sketchy [00:05] <@Cosmo> yea i feel like itd be shitty if the 100% record was on emu [00:05] but that poodleskirt's mst record is not [00:05] if you don't think it's legit consult the filter boris [00:05] just because vc exists and would beat him [00:05] but [00:05] that sorto f distinction [00:05] <+zodiac> why would 100% be sketch on emu [00:05] is difficult to advetrtise on the ldaerboard [00:05] <+zodiac> without other cats being sketchy [00:06] <@Cosmo> because VC exists [00:06] because vc doesnt have the advantage [00:06] <@Cosmo> also: [00:06] the point of the filter would be to compensate for people having conflicting opinions boris [00:06] <@Cosmo> at some point, somebody is going to do a really good 100% J run [00:06] <@Cosmo> and it will be controversial [00:06] having the 100% record on emu would not be shitty [00:06] oh yeah fuck [00:06] 100% j [00:06] you can't prevent controversy [00:06] thats gonna be tough for us [00:07] how much time does J save for 100%? 20 min? [00:07] i dont know why people arent doing 100% j runs already yet [00:07] <+zodiac> but emu isnt trying to emulate vc its trying to emulate n64 [00:07] and it does a shitty job of it [00:07] <+zodiac> i know that [00:07] i plan on committing to 100% j [00:07] so that ZFG will switch to it [00:07] he said he would [00:07] emu has less lag than n64 [00:07] so it has the advantage over n64 [00:07] <+zodiac> does it have less lag than n64 though [00:08] imo the difference is negligible so i don't care. if you have a problem consult the filter [00:08] <+zodiac> ive heard so many conflicting things [00:08] where's the proof of that? [00:08] <%mzxrules> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=86RC5ecziAc [00:08] i guess it depends on ur hardware and settings [00:08] (which is also dumb) [00:08] wodahs just did a bunch of research, we could easily estimate the difference [00:08] <+zodiac> i thought he did n64 vs vc [00:08] <@Cosmo> loading and lag are 2 different things [00:08] oh, true, cosmo [00:08] <+zodiac> also that [00:09] does emu do pauses more slow than n6 [00:09] 4? [00:09] <+zodiac> yes [00:09] just making sure [00:09] <+cafde> could limit emu to 1.2 and just have n64 be the standard for 100% [00:09] idk. in my opinion the filter would take care of everything. i wouldn't care if i got a good run in that category and people thought it didn't count [00:09] <+zodiac> emu has a chunk of lag when you hit start to unpause [00:09] <+zodiac> like at all times [00:09] <+Runnerguy2489> don't we already have all the filters? [00:10] <@Cosmo> rg: you cant submit multiple times yet [00:10] <@Cosmo> like J and U records [00:10] <+Runnerguy2489> ah yeah [00:10] U=emu? [00:10] <+TestRunner> u = us [00:10] us [00:11] <+TestRunner> so hows the discussion going? [00:11] oh well i sounded pretty dumb there [00:11] <+Runnerguy2489> yeah because a huge component of the leaderboard and it's timing was that you could submit a race time [00:11] <+Runnerguy2489> which might be U, but then if you wanted to do a J run or whatever you could submit that too? I think that would be cool [00:11] <@Cosmo> yea that would be cool [00:12] <+TestRunner> yea, for SS-harp. I have the only J time, and it feels wierd [00:12] <+TestRunner> I might take my j time off [00:12] <+TestRunner> but i don't really play U anymore :/ [00:12] yeah that's another reason the boards should be consolidated [00:13] the question is, is it more unfair that test runner has to be alone in his leaderboard because he used a different language, or is it more unfair to ppl on u boards that it's topped by a jp run [00:13] and in my opinion the former is much more unfair, because if the other runners want to improve their time they should get jp [00:14] <+TestRunner> personall,y I don't really care about my ranking, i i think me being above for no reason is bad [00:14] <+TestRunner> tlozsr has complained about that [00:14] <+TestRunner> apparently it caused a lot of confusion among his viewers [00:14] didn't consider that [00:15] <+TestRunner> which is why i was thinking of taking my time off [00:15] <+Runnerguy2489> question: who are we catering with this more to: ourselves or general average joe twitch viewer? [00:16] <@Cosmo> ideally both [00:16] ^, filtering would statsify both [00:16] ^ [00:16] <+TestRunner> maybe, but i think most ppl don't bother with filters [00:16] yes, so they'll see the #1 [00:16] <%sockfolder> maybe you should just have a standard list of filters [00:16] just adequately emphasizing the importance of filters [00:16] <+TestRunner> they just see someone ranked #1 [00:16] no filtering necessary [00:16] would solve the problem [00:16] <%sockfolder> like "official categories" [00:16] <+zodiac> have the page open with select a filter [00:17] <%sockfolder> filters being possible if you want to see more than that [00:17] sockfolder i mentioned that earlier and it was the worst idea ever [00:17] <+zodiac> and then have like none | us | jp | w/e [00:17] <%sockfolder> oh? [00:17] <+Runnerguy2489> I like the page opening with filters first [00:17] i dont like that idea [00:17] <+Runnerguy2489> then you pick what you want and know what you are getting when you click it [00:17] Agreed the page should open with filters [00:17] <+zodiac> that definitely makes it easier for newbie guys [00:17] the page should be any%/quickest game completition/whatever [00:17] lol [00:17] <%sockfolder> filters first = not casual though [00:17] then you can filter for categories [00:17] <+zodiac> like if theyre watching some US player on twitch and they go to leaderboard theyre not gonna click jp [00:18] <+Runnerguy2489> well yeah category first [00:18] <+zodiac> theyre gonna click US [00:18] <+TestRunner> yea, the general viewer doesn't understand the differences of versions [00:18] <+cafde> the problem with filters is most people don't care what both the fastest U and the fastest J times are [00:18] <+cafde> they just see the top time [00:18] hmm yeah, well that is a problem [00:18] the first thing should be the quickest time [00:18] like cafde said [00:18] <+TestRunner> most common question i get is: "Why are you playing jap?" [00:18] im a noob and i care [00:18] <@Cosmo> Version: All, no emulator, n64, gcn, vc, ique, pj64 [00:18] <@Cosmo> Language: All, jp, en [00:18] <@Cosmo> is this like a fair thing [00:19] <+zodiac> should we even tolerate ique [00:19] i like the "no emulator" instead of "emulator" [00:19] so it only shows up in all i guess lol [00:19] oh pj64 [00:19] yeha that's fair i think [00:19] <%sockfolder> does anyone play on mupen? [00:19] ennopp does [00:19] for mm 100% [00:19] <@Cosmo> "Console Only" rather than "no emulator" [00:19] Maybe the leader boards should have an explanation? Like you click a category, and then you have a selection of filters with an explanation saying that different versions are certainly different :P [00:19] <+zodiac> i dont see the point in even acknowledging ique runs [00:19] <+zodiac> if someone does it its purely as a gimmick [00:19] <+TestRunner> does anyone own an ique? [00:19] <@Cosmo> my idea is [00:20] yeah ique can be cut i think [00:20] <@Cosmo> dont put it up [00:20] <+TestRunner> or knows someone who owns one? [00:20] <@Cosmo> until somebody actually does a run [00:20] <@Cosmo> lol [00:20] <@Cosmo> or just ban it idk [00:20] ohhhh good [00:20] aleckermit and natalyahasdied own iques i think [00:20] wait [00:20] no your idea is good [00:20] lol [00:20] <+TestRunner> aleck, i shouldn't be surprised, lol [00:20] Cosmo is there any reason to make it pj64 only [00:20] alec did some uhh [00:20] cuz theres runners with mupen [00:20] <@Cosmo> mupen is shittier for runs afaik ? [00:20] he did an any% no wrong warp run on ique didnt he [00:20] <@Cosmo> yea he did I think [00:20] idk, ennopp said that it had quicker resets for him [00:21] <+Runnerguy2489> yeah [00:21] but is mupen64plus better? [00:21] and he preferred it [00:21] <+TestRunner> might as well leave it in then [00:21] lol\\ [00:21] <+Runnerguy2489> alec did the sda marathon any% type route [00:21] <@Cosmo> hell we could put that ru nup [00:21] <@Cosmo> lol [00:21] <@Cosmo> why not [00:21] okay, emulator should be standardized [00:21] <@Cosmo> yea [00:21] <+TestRunner> agreed [00:21] there shouldn't be ppl having preferences between emulators lol [00:21] pj+mupen [00:21] <@Cosmo> ban mupen [00:21] yes they should be [00:21] BAN MUPEN [00:21] ##vote mupen [00:22] <+TestRunner> it's basically the reason VC is allowed [00:22] <+TestRunner> standardized [00:22] <%mzxrules> hey uh [00:22] ok [00:22] <+Runnerguy2489> are you focing an n64 controller for mupen? or could someone use an xbox one? [00:22] <+Runnerguy2489> sorry not mupen pj [00:22] <+zodiac> emulator preference is fine if we know enough about the emulators [00:22] paladrima plays on x360 controller [00:22] <+zodiac> see lttp allowing GT, snes9x, and bsnes [00:22] <@Cosmo> i figure what ever controller is fine as long as its not w/ turbo use or w/e [00:22] <%RingRush> omfg mupen is bad [00:22] i agree with cosmo [00:22] <%RingRush> don't make me pull out the twitch highlight [00:22] <+TestRunner> yea, standard SDA rules for controllers [00:22] what twitch highlight [00:22] <%sockfolder> well turbo just needs to be banned naturally [00:22] Yeah any controller just no turbo or enhancements [00:22] <+zodiac> pull it out rr let me see [00:23] <%mzxrules> anyone look into how much time early eyeball frog may/may not save? [00:23] <%RingRush> i'd actually have to splice it out I never highlighted [00:23] <@Cosmo> yea sock [00:23] <+zodiac> splice it then IDIOT [00:23] <%RingRush> I did ad emo of dk64 on mupen on stream [00:23] <%RingRush> and it is the worst shit [00:23] <+zodiac> is it worse than pj64 dk64 [00:23] <@Cosmo> rr would only N64 be legit for DK64 [00:23] <%RingRush> and...I didn't save [00:23] <%RingRush> it is 100x worse [00:23] <%RingRush> yes cosmo [00:23] <@Cosmo> i know theres no VC for that game [00:23] <@Cosmo> and emulates poorly ? [00:23] <%RingRush> in pj there is this glitch [00:23] <%RingRush> where when you grab onto something [00:24] <%RingRush> you can get warped to another position on the map [00:24] <+TestRunner> >_> [00:24] <%RingRush> which can both be terrible or useful depending on when it happens [00:24] does a dk64 tas exist [00:24] <%RingRush> no [00:24] rofl [00:24] <%RingRush> dk64 on mupen [00:24] oh yea [00:24] right [00:24] <%RingRush> 1. can't even play us version, which is the faster one [00:24] <%RingRush> 2. physics change in some points [00:24] <%RingRush> like, your jump height is halfed [00:24] <%RingRush> or speed is cut [00:24] <%RingRush> or your animation changes [00:24] lol [00:24] <+TestRunner> O.o [00:24] <%mzxrules> i wonder how that's even possible [00:25] <%RingRush> it is just so bad [00:25] <%RingRush> some parts it is perfectly fine, but usually when there is a tunnel nearby [00:25] <%RingRush> it goes to shit [00:25] <%mzxrules> there were n64 emulators before DK64 came out right [00:25] emulation is not a simple task, that's how it's possible [00:25] like [00:25] <%RingRush> the kickjump to the switch in japes is really hard [00:25] not a simple task at all [00:25] <%RingRush> on mupen [00:25] especially for n64 and later gens [00:26] <%mzxrules> idk, the cd based games seem like they'd be significantly easier to emulate since you don't have to deal with tech built into the individual cartriges [00:26] <+TestRunner> yea [00:26] <+TestRunner> like Starfox [00:28] so uh [00:28] mafia anyone? :p [00:28] <%mzxrules> then again, you have the 3ds where everything is encrypted [00:28] <%RingRush> boris: closed roles? [00:28] i want to play killing floor [00:28] <+TestRunner> i don't remember how ot play mafia, lol [00:28] uhh [00:29] that sounds awful [00:29] if i remember what it is [00:29] <%RingRush> you kids [00:29] I don't think n64 did coprocessors either mzxrules [00:29] <%RingRush> just make sure you set the allowed roels to good stuff [00:29] <%RingRush> like not baker [00:29] <%RingRush> and not crappy girl [00:29] <%RingRush> etc [00:29] but the 3D math gets complicated quickly without good documentation [00:29] <%mzxrules> Reality Coprocesser [00:30] <+zodiac> ps1/2 emulation owns [00:30] <%mzxrules> part of n64 tech [00:30] <%RingRush> ps1 emulation ftw [00:30] <%RingRush> it makes ps1 games more playable [00:30] ps1 emulation is kind of poor [00:30] <+zodiac> itsj ust n64 emulators that are really agonizingly shit [00:30] <%RingRush> because the load times are so bad normally [00:30] in terms of accuracy [00:30] how is ps1 emulation compared to playing on ps2 with fast disk speed [00:30] <%RingRush> play croc 2 on pcsx or psxjin [00:30] <+TestRunner> even playing a ps1 game on your ps2 >_> [00:30] <%RingRush> and you have to use a trick to get past the title screen [00:30] i kinda dislike the ps2 fast disk speed setting but [00:31] i really cant think of a good reason to disallow it [00:31] <%mzxrules> you serious rr? [00:31] <%RingRush> yes [00:31] <%RingRush> if you try to start game it'll just softlock except for pausing [00:31] <%RingRush> so you have to pause, save, exit, and reload [00:31] <%RingRush> and you'll appear at the start of the game [00:31] <+TestRunner> lol? [00:31] that sounds like how i had to operate my dvd player when i lost the remote [00:31] lmao [00:32] <%mzxrules> that is the funniest shit ever [00:32] <%RingRush> I mean thats how I found wrong warp to final world [00:32] <%RingRush> by trying to bypass this [00:32] <%RingRush> and staring the file and exiting at the same time [00:32] <%RingRush> so I guess it is cool? [00:33] <%RingRush> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5OejbQZPZZs [00:33] Eww croc 2 [00:34] <%RingRush> ^ [00:36] <+TestRunner> so, uh, is this discussion wrapped up then? [00:36] <+TestRunner> seems like ppl are ok with cosmo's compromise? [00:36] <@Cosmo> i want to make mockups of some leaderboards for oot [00:36] <%RingRush> cosmoprise [00:36] <@Cosmo> and maybe then we can discuss more, but i think the discussion was pretty goo [00:36] <@Cosmo> good* [00:36] <@Cosmo> pretty goo [00:36] <+TestRunner> kk [00:36] <%RingRush> timing is going to be weird [00:36] <%RingRush> like for standardization using real time would be best [00:36] <@Cosmo> timing is another discussion [00:37] <%RingRush> but the question is when to start timing [00:37] <+TestRunner> btw, i have a couple suggestions for the srl streams page [00:37] <@jiano> timing will prob be on the leaderboard where it starts/stops for each game [00:37] <+TestRunner> like, the stream title of the selected stream should also appear at top [00:37] <+TestRunner> and it would be cool if there was a follow button for the stream you are watching [00:38] <@Cosmo> i dont think follow button is possible [00:38] <+TestRunner> dang [00:44] <%RingRush> a follow button would need a twitch login [00:44] <+TestRunner> but aren't you already logged into chat? [00:46] and for stream title why put it on top it's allready whrited under the streamer [00:47] i dont want to have to scroll down to read the stream title [00:47] <+TestRunner> ^ [00:47] <+TestRunner> especially if you aren't watching the top 2 streams [00:47] also since the streams have the title written rather than the short bio [00:47] the boxes have felt kinda empty [00:47] maybe a larger font would be better? [00:48] eh some people put long titles [00:49] <+TestRunner> it's pretty minor tho, doesn't really matter that much [00:50] but if you want to switch to another stream you have to scroll down anyway [00:51] so? [00:51] if i sit watching a stream for a while [00:51] im not gonna remember what exactly was in the title [00:52] also if someone has a link in their title [00:52] i dont think i can click/cp it [00:53] <+TestRunner> yea, you can't copy+paste links from the titles [00:54] well it's true also the "featured stream (stream username)" is kinda useless [00:54] it already uses your twitch cookie for chat [00:54] a follow button shouldn't be an issue [00:55] it doesnt need to say featured stream but that's w/e [00:55] it shows srl username, not stream username, and that's a link to their srl profile [00:55] that should stay [00:55] <%mzxrules> "Complete the Shadow Temple without the need of the Lens of Truth (practically impossible considering the boss though?)" [00:56] <+TestRunner> wut? [00:56] <@Cosmo> good points about the titles [00:56] <@Cosmo> i can work on that [00:56] huh [00:56] <+TestRunner> kk [00:56] thanks Cosmo [00:57] this is why I said it's useless the featured stream can be replaced and should not be here [00:57] <@Cosmo> yea [00:57] <@Cosmo> i want to keep improving that page [00:57] <@Cosmo> thx for suggestions [00:58] <@Cosmo> they are good ones [01:18] <@Cosmo> ok [01:19] <@Cosmo> I figure its like [01:19] <@Cosmo> layers of filtering [01:19] <@Cosmo> for wind wkaer it would be like [01:19] <@Cosmo> Category: Any%, 100% [01:19] <@Cosmo> Language: All, Japanese, English [01:20] <@Cosmo> Tingle Tuner: All, uses GBA, no GBA [01:20] <@Cosmo> you would just click on shit [01:20] <+TestRunner> seems good [01:20] <@Cosmo> it would default to Any%, All, All [01:20] <@Cosmo> for OoT it would be like [01:20] <@Cosmo> Category: Any%, MST, 100% (if we keep it simple for now) [01:20] <+zodiac> i think for tuner it should just be all, and then no gba [01:21] <+zodiac> how often are people gonna want to see just tuner times? all you have to do is look at all the top times [01:21] <@Cosmo> Version: N64 GC VC Emu Console-Only iQue PJ64 etc [01:21] <@Cosmo> Language: JP EN all w/e [01:21] <@Cosmo> no reason you couldnt have that option though [01:21] <@Cosmo> it would default to All [01:21] <@Cosmo> so that would be displayed by default