The Great Prescription Skip Debate ---------------------------------------------------------------- Chapter 1 - Discovery: http://pastebin.com/uxWcRhka Chapter 2 - It Begins: http://pastebin.com/wRsNmmhP Chapter 3 - Analysis: http://pastebin.com/iuStxa0J Chapter 4 - Challenger: http://pastebin.com/AuNF3GhC Chapter 5 - Ideas: http://pastebin.com/7SaRZAvA ---------------------------------------------------------------- [21:51] <@Cosmo> im tryin to get poodleh ere [21:51] <@Cosmo> he is a "WR" holder on emu [21:51] <@jiano> pls [21:52] <@Cosmo> hi [21:52] getting poodle in here is also opening a can of worms [21:52] <@maxx> lol [21:52] <@Cosmo> whys that lol [21:52] hi [21:52] <+Kryssstal> snes gb player runs at like 62 fps or something crazy and the gamecube one runs gb at the gamecube framerate [21:52] <@maxx> nice 1 boris HE'S HERE [21:52] sup poodle? [21:52] lmao [21:52] <+Kryssstal> actual gameboy is like 57 fps? or something slow [21:52] <@Cosmo> anyway yea poodle we discussing leaderboards more seriously [21:52] cool [21:52] <@Cosmo> and about how N64 emulation isnt too accurate so its weird [21:52] ZSR leaderboards I suppose you mean [21:53] <@Cosmo> for now I guess yea zsr but maybe branching out later [21:53] <@Cosmo> one thing is like if runs should even be labeled as "WR" or not [21:53] <@Cosmo> another is if emu shoudl have separate table [21:53] it seems to me that the difference between VC and N64 is so big and they're both legal. I don't really understand what major differences people seem to think emulator has that should warrant it's being illegal [21:54] <@Cosmo> the thing that came up today with the N64 100% thing [21:54] well w/ new 100% not being able to be done on vc, emu has a clear advantage [21:54] <@Cosmo> 100% on VC is now dead if this trick doesnt work on VC [21:54] <+Runnerguy2489> if emu is separate, why not jp? it's the one that really separates two things more so in most cases than n64 vs vc [21:54] <+Kryssstal> I don't see what "official" matters when it comes to VC, like if it's a min faster on sm64 then that's the same thing as emu saving time [21:54] holy hell i called that if the trick was n64 exclusive it would be called cheating [21:54] how about we ban VC instead [21:55] <@jiano> official as in, everyone has the exact same emulator on the same console [21:55] <%RingRush> or just if you choose to play vc you eat the consequence like with all other version differences lol [21:55] <@jiano> pj64 can be on varying pcs, varying plugins, varying versions [21:55] <@Cosmo> the thing i wanted to say was [21:55] <@Cosmo> if 100% is only viable on N64, and ppl run it on emu which reduces lag, that is sort of scummy [21:55] <@jiano> ya what rr said [21:55] <@jiano> if n64 is faster than vc then GOOD IMO [21:55] <@Cosmo> Ithink if VC and GCN never existed then nobody would allow emu either cuase its faster [21:55] <@Cosmo> but cause VC shits on stuff [21:56] <@jiano> pj64 emulations is complete trash and shouldnt be taken seriously in any n64 gam [21:56] <@Cosmo> for the record: I don't care in the slightest if VC is obsolete for 100%, its fine if N64 is faster, im not mad in the slightest lol [21:56] <@Cosmo> im saying that [21:56] <@Cosmo> Emu is now broken for 100% then [21:56] <@Cosmo> cause lag reduction [21:57] <%RingRush> is there a feasible time estimate [21:57] <@maxx> i like that 100% is better on n64 haha [21:57] <@maxx> and i play vc all day [21:57] <@jiano> ya [21:57] <@Cosmo> another thing is [21:57] sure, i can't argue with that. I mean, obviously VC is faster load times than N64 on everything else [21:57] <@Cosmo> N64 is obsolete for any% [21:57] <@Cosmo> you cannot beat pydoyks on an N64 [21:57] but we're saying that's not an issue because of other things like worse controls? [21:57] <@Cosmo> too much lag [21:57] <+Runnerguy2489> so ban everything but n64 !!! [21:57] <+Runnerguy2489> =) [21:57] right, pretty sure emu is in the same boat [21:57] <@maxx> i don't think controls have anything to do with any of this??? [21:57] for any% [21:57] <%RingRush> everyone go import japanese n64s gogo [21:58] <@maxx> i have jp n64 1.0 RingRush lol [21:58] <%RingRush> why not apply a penalty to emulator runs [21:58] <%RingRush> approximately equal to the lag bonus [21:58] <@Cosmo> penalty is ugly [21:58] <@maxx> uhhhhhhhhhhh [21:58] <@jiano> because its inconsistent [21:58] <@maxx> that's awful [21:58] <@Cosmo> penalty is like arbitrary and hsitty [21:58] oh, if controls, etc. don't come into play when we're talking about it, then could the same argument be used to say VC should be banned from MST [21:58] <%RingRush> yeah, that is ugly [21:58] <@maxx> add time for savewarps like sda used to do [21:58] <@maxx> lol [21:59] since it's blatantly the fastest [21:59] <%RingRush> and if it is inconsistent it doesn't work [21:59] <@Cosmo> how so @ poodle [21:59] <@Cosmo> o i c [21:59] <+zodiac> the main issue with emu over vc is emu varies based on a ton of different things and also n64 emulation is really really bad [21:59] who's going to count their savewarps [22:00] <@jiano> ya everyones vc is the same [22:00] <@Cosmo> vc is an official release of the game [22:00] i highly disagree n64 emulation is really really bad [22:00] at least for OoT [22:00] <+zodiac> well youre objectively wrong [22:00] <+TestRunner> so like 4 cats: n64/GC/VC/emu? [22:00] <@Cosmo> so is iQue [22:00] <%RingRush> I mean theoretically for the leaderboards you can mandate some standardized emulator and version...but I think you're trying to break free from a "site record" thing and go towards a "world record" thing in which case that own't work [22:00] <@Cosmo> ique is an official release of OoT [22:00] i'm objectively wrong that something is "really really bad"? [22:00] lol [22:01] <+zodiac> yeah, the emulation is really really bad [22:01] <+zodiac> plahying on a real console and then on emu the difference is instantly apparent [22:01] <@Cosmo> yea RR but I dontk now if we can ever properly declare WR if we cant agree on stuff [22:01] <+zodiac> you can pause the game once and go "hang on this is nothing like console" [22:01] <@jiano> i just cant trust pj64 at all anymore cus of the sm64 thing removing all lag lol [22:01] <@Cosmo> i asked random ppl on twitter if emu is allowed or not for WRs and I got a huge mix response [22:01] lag penalties are impossible to calculate but the 59.97 v 60 fps penalty for emu should be easy and consistent [22:02] <%RingRush> well can we all agree that like..dolphin is banned for tww [22:02] if ur penalizing one thing but not another then what the hell [22:02] <+zodiac> penalties are dumb and awful [22:02] <+zodiac> imo [22:02] <@jiano> ya [22:03] it's not a penalty, it's a correction, duh [22:03] <%RingRush> I wish the solution of "stop playing on emulator" worked for everyone [22:03] it just comes down to people not wanting emulator to become a "standard" the way VC has sort of become [22:03] <%RingRush> but I know that'll never happen [22:03] ringrush, why ban emu for TWW? [22:03] and in my opinion, that's silly, since we're all playing the same game [22:03] ya emulator should not be standard [22:03] just wondering [22:03] <+zodiac> i dont understand why emu people cant just buy the game they spend hundreds of hours playing [22:03] <%RingRush> dolphin doesn't even attempt to emulate load times or lag [22:03] Abahbob: because you'd save like an hour on load times alone [22:03] <+zodiac> lol [22:03] <%RingRush> I know for metroid prime it is a ridiculous ammount of difference [22:04] mostly what i've heard here against emulator is that it's "objectively really really bad" lol [22:04] lol i never even looked at the load times. I've just noticed that they are still longish [22:04] <+zodiac> that was one line i said [22:04] <+zodiac> and yes n64 emulation is nothing like the console [22:04] <+zodiac> it is bad at emulation [22:04] no it's not [22:04] they feel exactly the same to me [22:04] walk into bazaar [22:04] what happens [22:04] <+zodiac> well you havent played on console then [22:04] <+zodiac> you can pause the game one time [22:04] <+zodiac> and notice the difference [22:04] <%RingRush> poodleskirt if they feel the same to you then play on console and so we don't have to deal with this controversy [22:04] <%RingRush> lol [22:05] The thing is, if people can't run emu then 100% is going to get a huge drop in players. Even more so when the day comes people start playing it on J. [22:05] the game literally plays faster and it's mathematically simple to calculate, I'm not entirely convinced a 1.00050025x correction for emu times is a bad idea [22:05] <@Cosmo> this isnt about any 1 player [22:05] <+zodiac> it might be close enough to be playable but n64 emulation is just a punch of cobbled together hacks with no actual attempt at accuracy [22:05] <+Kryssstal> certain emus for consoles before n64 era seems fine without room for controversy at least, imo [22:06] <@jiano> ya [22:06] <+Kryssstal> mixed responses there would just come from lack of knowledge [22:06] <@jiano> snes9x and bsnes are fine [22:06] ^ [22:06] <%RingRush> so what is the check whether an emulator is good enough [22:06] <+Kryssstal> nes genesis gb probably have good stuff [22:06] 2D systems are much easier to do accurately [22:06] <%RingRush> if you can come up with some standardized test [22:06] and even they can get complicated [22:06] <%RingRush> then just apply that to any emulator [22:06] <+Kryssstal> if it's like same frames as console that's pretty good to me lol [22:06] <+Kryssstal> good luck w/ n64 emus being same lag emulation tho [22:07] <+Kryssstal> I don't even know what I'd do about VC if I ran n64 games [22:07] <+zodiac> yea n64 emus will never pass that test [22:07] <+Kryssstal> seems to be a game by game basis thing [22:07] <+zodiac> unless someone like bsnes guy sits down and actually tries to make something accurate [22:07] <+Kryssstal> like use n64 if you wanted to run sm64 and VC if you wanted to run oot? I don't know [22:07] <%RingRush> wait [22:07] So if we're allowing n64 emu, would restricting it to PJ64 1.7 be unreasonable? [22:08] <%RingRush> wasn't sm64 console verified? [22:08] <%RingRush> the tas [22:08] If you don't run MM/OoT on VC (other then OoT 100% now) You just lose a bunch of time. [22:08] <@jiano> krystal majority of english speaking sm64 players use vc and emu [22:08] the N64bot that console verifies has it wait on lag frames [22:08] <%RingRush> really? [22:08] Jiano yea, lots are switching to N64 [22:09] it doesn't wait on lag frames [22:09] <%RingRush> wow that is silly to call it console verified then [22:09] the controller just isn't polled, so it doesn't send anything [22:09] <@jiano> idk why ppl are switching to n64 lol [22:09] <@jiano> literally no point [22:09] <+Kryssstal> yea but if you get a better time than sig on vc then no one would care like you said [22:09] that [22:09] their choice lol [22:09] <%mzxrules> lol [22:09] i still want a GCbot [22:09] <@jiano> what if someone got like 3 mins faster than sig on vc [22:09] <@jiano> that would be confusing [22:09] <+Kryssstal> it's just like each game is its own community-defined thing and there's no way to generalize "speedruns" [22:09] thats possible but [22:09] <+zodiac> if they were 3 mins faster i think that would get respect [22:09] since sig is so fucking good [22:09] its really unlikely [22:09] <+zodiac> hard situation but no ones going to question their skill [22:10] <@jiano> but what do u consider the real record [22:10] yea it would be confusing [22:10] <@Cosmo> 1:41 VC or 1:44 N64 [22:10] <@Cosmo> which is WR [22:10] <+Kryssstal> whichever one is faster after adjusting? I assume someone would be bored enough to check [22:10] all i know is that JP would totally not count it [22:10] <+zodiac> 1:41 vc would be WR [22:10] there is no way to adjust in sm64 [22:10] <@jiano> u cant adjust because super inconsistent [22:10] <@Cosmo> cant do adjustment because there are lag reduction strategies [22:10] <+zodiac> id say shortest time is always going to be wr [22:10] <+zodiac> even if you respect one run as being better with a slower time [22:10] <@jiano> ya if vc is "allowed" then it should always be fastest time [22:11] <@Cosmo> one cool thing about VC [22:11] if a VC time would beat sig [22:11] <%mzxrules> grr [22:11] <+Kryssstal> hard to say, dang vc [22:11] it would be considered WR [22:11] <@jiano> n64 being standard for sm64 makes no sense esp since every other game vc is standard [22:11] but just not to the japanese [22:11] <@Cosmo> its standardized and its more readily available than N64 [22:11] <%RingRush> yeah but zodiac that doesn't apply to emulators really [22:11] sry i looked away are we still talking about oot [22:11] <%mzxrules> so with King Zora Collection Delay, I keep getting a grab icon whenever I pull hookshot [22:11] <%RingRush> there is a glitch in dk64 that is only possible on project and mupen, not on actual consoles [22:12] <%RingRush> and you wouldn't a run using that the wr would you [22:12] <%RingRush> so there has to be some place you draw the line [22:12] <@jiano> i dont think anyone would consider dk64 on emu [22:12] <@jiano> or castlvania64 or bk or most n64 games [22:12] but with sm64 everyone started to not care what version you played [22:12] u play n64 u go slower ur choice lol [22:12] <@jiano> oot and sm64 just happen to be decently emulated [22:13] <%mzxrules> oot emulated on what [22:13] oot seems pretty complicated tho :/ [22:13] <@jiano> on pj64 [22:13] popular games get more internal hacks to work 'right' [22:13] <%mzxrules> i can't see grottos on pj64 [22:13] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_3Jt0vR5Lw changed it to youtube. just for future reference [22:14] <%mzxrules> and other generally flat textures like paths [22:14] <@jiano> i said decent [22:14] <@jiano> not good lol [22:14] <%RingRush> visual errors aren't that big of a deal [22:14] <%RingRush> its more of lag errors or especially physics errors (which I don't think there are any documented for oot) [22:14] does this new oot glitch only work on VC/emulator or something? i missed the beginning of this discussion [22:14] mzxrules what's your graphics chip? [22:14] it only works on n64 [22:14] <%mzxrules> intel [22:14] 1.0/1.1 [22:14] ahh, okay [22:14] That's an intel thing [22:15] so that's why they are talking about separating it into 2 categories, gotcha [22:15] <%mzxrules> no it's a "We're a closed dev deal" thing with pj64 imo [22:15] <@Cosmo> ive been discussing this with people for more than a week [22:15] <@Cosmo> this new trick is just a good example [22:15] <%RingRush> is there a filter by console section [22:15] so we're thinking doing 100% runs on emu provides a lag advantage that can no longer be matched with vc (an official version) [22:15] <%RingRush> like...just let people come to their own conclusions [22:15] <@jiano> i tyhink thats a bad thing though rr [22:15] <+zodiac> you have to have some kind of rules on runs [22:15] <@jiano> it starts to make the leaderboard meaningless [22:15] ^ [22:16] <%RingRush> you're right [22:16] <+zodiac> and if you dont have rules and people come to different conclusions then when a run happens on certain versions people will get all annoyed about it [22:16] <%RingRush> but say we ban emulators, and poodle gets the obvious best time even without lag bonuses [22:16] <%RingRush> and we say it isn't the wr....that is kind of meaningless too [22:16] <+zodiac> yea its a really hard situation [22:16] <@jiano> as long as the community of a game agrees on a standard [22:16] <@jiano> i think its fine [22:17] <@jiano> if 99% of oot players say emu is stupid then [22:17] <@jiano> well there you go [22:17] So why does 1.0 and 1.1 VC inject have to be banned? [22:17] <+Runnerguy2489> 99% don't though [22:17] <@jiano> i know im just saying [22:17] because 1.0 and 1.1 are only officially released on n64 [22:17] inject is banned for exclusive combined 1.0 and VC only things [22:17] stick on b on vc + 1.0 advantages [22:17] <+Runnerguy2489> yeah community dictates is fine [22:17] <+Runnerguy2489> oot is just super spread apart [22:17] <@jiano> i just dont think emulator should ever ever be the preferred version [22:17] <@Cosmo> VC 1.0 banned by combining advantages from two different official versions [22:17] <%RingRush> if we do allow emulators we definitely have to specify approval [22:18] VC is an emulator and it has become preferred preffered whatever [22:18] <+zodiac> yea there has to be a certain version you run on [22:18] <+zodiac> for sure [22:18] <%RingRush> there are notoriously bad emulators out there, maybe not for n64 but other consoles [22:18] <@jiano> vc is an emulator created by the same ppl who made the n64 [22:18] the differences between VC and all other versions is much greater than difference between emu and n64 [22:18] <@Cosmo> vc is an official standardized release so I dont think yo ucan ban it really under any circumstance [22:18] <@Cosmo> you could only separate it [22:18] <@Cosmo> like N64 and VC charts [22:18] imo inject should be allowed for 100% and just leave everything else the way it is [22:19] <@jiano> vc is also consistent across all wiis, not the case for pj64 [22:19] it's a tricky balance between making times accurate and meaningful and not becoming so exclusionary to versions/categories that you become SDA or TG [22:19] all of these ideas seem pretty arbitrary lol [22:19] <@jiano> it has to be [22:19] i agree enterim [22:19] <+zodiac> yea its a really dumb and arbitrary thing but it has to be [22:19] <@jiano> theres no way it wont be arbitrary [22:19] <+Runnerguy2489> vc consistent across all wiis? wasn't zfg's loading time in consideration at one point? [22:19] <@Cosmo> was it? remind me [22:19] <+zodiac> did zfg overclopck his wii or something lol [22:19] <@jiano> never heard of it [22:19] <%RingRush> loading time hacks [22:19] The only way for it not to be arbitrary is to email Nintendo [22:19] i'm sort of surprised this came up before there ever existed 2 runs that were so close on separate versions that one would have beat the other if it were on the other version [22:19] i thought it was cause some1 dropped their wii [22:19] and it lagged [22:19] lol [22:19] Kazooie over clocked his N64 [22:20] LMAO [22:20] <+zodiac> kazooie also played on pal [22:20] <@jiano> no one really used emulators before the last year or so because sda being the standard and bans emu [22:20] <@Cosmo> well nobody evr stepped up and tried to figure this out [22:20] <@Cosmo> yea [22:20] Kazooie tried to make his PAL N64 play at 60Hz and ended up at like 63 or something [22:21] <%RingRush> people definitely had runs on emulators [22:21] <@Cosmo> poodle I know u like leaderboard idea but how would you personally have it done? [22:21] <%RingRush> but people ignored them [22:21] <@Cosmo> what about playing on nero64 or w/e the hell [22:21] <@Cosmo> weird shitty emus [22:21] <%RingRush> or else they were like...Wak was it? [22:21] digging them up [22:21] <%RingRush> that was a funny topic [22:21] play on corn [22:21] <@jiano> wak lol [22:21] limit it to certain emus I guess [22:22] like PJ64 1.7 only [22:22] why [22:22] <+zodiac> because other emus are worse [22:22] as it's the most accurate afaik [22:22] shitty emus will slow the player down [22:22] This isn't the best example but MM crashes on 1.7 [22:22] not speed him up [22:22] <%RingRush> is 1.7 more accurate than 1.6? [22:22] yeah, i would have let people post their times [22:22] I would think so... [22:22] <%RingRush> I know BT for example works on 1.6 but not 1.7 [22:22] 1.6 is at least open source lol [22:22] mupen64+ then? [22:22] <@Cosmo> zsnes has no lag so you could get some sick alttp time on it I think [22:22] let them be shitty if they want [22:22] mupen64plus is at least active though [22:22] and if their were complaints about legitimacy they would have been dealt with on a case by case bases I think [22:23] and it's cross platform [22:23] so that's a plus [22:23] <+zodiac> doesnt mupen64 still have the pause lag [22:23] <%RingRush> cosmo just tweet asking for a new n64 emulator [22:23] <@Cosmo> GUIpsp you could run on a fast emu like zsnes [22:23] <%RingRush> you have enough followers [22:23] Though it is community-driven, so it's not unreasonable to specify what emulators are OK for each game [22:23] <%RingRush> maybe one will do it [22:23] <+zodiac> unless you enable that one setting that makes it tank on certain computers [22:23] having a rift in the community about the platforms we play on is extremely silly considering that there's never been any 2 runs on separate platforms close enough for it to actually matter [22:23] <+Kryssstal> Cosmo: it'd save like 40-50 seconds maybe @ zsnes [22:24] <+zodiac> itd save a lot more time than that on non-wr quality runs though right? [22:24] <+Kryssstal> idk lol [22:24] <@jiano> it happened in sm64 though [22:24] <@Cosmo> if we just let it rock then nobody even knows what the best time is [22:24] <@jiano> sig beat erumos time i believe on vc right ? [22:24] <@jiano> or 70 [22:24] <@jiano> one or the other [22:24] <@Cosmo> VC 1:41 vs N64 1:44 [22:24] <@Cosmo> yea jiano [22:24] <@Cosmo> tht kind of stuff [22:24] <+zodiac> sig got 70 wr on vc [22:25] I see beedle at endless night, though maybe he's only there if you get the despair screen idk [22:25] So really most of the people that are being affected by this would the ones with or close to WR [22:25] then what happened? [22:25] <@jiano> no1 knew what the real best time was [22:25] people are going to think what they think is legit regardless of what anyone says [22:25] <@jiano> and sig switched to jp so he could compare times [22:25] <@Cosmo> its basically anti-competitive [22:25] <%RingRush> splitting charts is anticompetitive too [22:25] <+zodiac> yea poodle but if theres rules at least we can tell them to shut up [22:25] <%RingRush> since it removes half the competition [22:25] I just think that the definition of World Record should be more specific [22:25] well, everyone knew what they real best time was [22:25] <@Cosmo> yes RR [22:25] it was the one that had less time on the clock at the end of the run [22:26] Cosmo, faster then console emus should be banned [22:26] why that didn't translate to "everyone switch to VC" like it did for OOT baffles me [22:26] <+Kryssstal> if your run isn't hosted on the SDA then why care about it [22:26] but there it is [22:26] and only those [22:26] SDA does shit like rejecting RaikerZ's PM 100% because it was encoded in wmv [22:26] <+zodiac> because jp people are weird [22:26] <+zodiac> is the answer to that [22:26] the same way speedup is banned [22:26] <+Kryssstal> I'd reject something encoded in wmv too lollll [22:26] <@jiano> yeah i still have no idea why sm64 pppl didnt go to vc lol [22:26] <+Kryssstal> on any website [22:26] <@jiano> why would u ever use wmvc lmao [22:26] I don't know [22:27] but the quality was still very watchable if in a stupid codec [22:27] <+zodiac> if u use wmv you prob dont deserve your record js... [22:27] <@jiano> but yeah w/e @ sda [22:27] <@jiano> let them do what they want [22:27] It was on YT at least [22:27] but yeah... i don't think using a shitty emulator will be an issue on leaderboards since that in no way translates to better times... and no one would want to play on those anyway [22:27] <+zodiac> i bet jp dudes wuold have switched to vc if sig stuck with vc [22:27] <+zodiac> sometimes shitty emulator does mean better times though [22:28] <+zodiac> like jiano said theres some plugin that eliminates all lag in sm64 [22:28] <@jiano> shitty emulator = no lag [22:28] <+zodiac> but the emulation is worse [22:28] <%RingRush> tbh it is up to japanese players to switch to the faster version, not english players to use the same slower ersion [22:28] <+zodiac> itd be dumb to allow that [22:28] <@Cosmo> yea rr [22:28] <+zodiac> agreed RR [22:28] <+zodiac> sig wanted to compare with them though and they werent going to switch [22:29] <@Cosmo> i feel like OoT is just not a competitive game cause of how spread apart it is [22:29] <@Cosmo> so manycategories, versions [22:29] <@Cosmo> its dumb [22:29] i disagree [22:29] we're acting like the versions are sooooo different [22:29] when they're really not. this new trick is an exception [22:29] OoT has to be that way because no one likes any% anymore [22:29] but yeah the categories are arbitrary, i agree [22:29] <@maxx> Cosmo: agreed [22:29] OoT has something for everybody [22:30] <@maxx> of course the categories are arbitrary lol [22:30] <%RingRush> ban child dungeons [22:30] ban child dungeons [22:30] <@jiano> how to be competitive in oot = race [22:30] <@maxx> every category for every game that isn't "any%" [22:30] <+zodiac> agreed with ringrush [22:30] <@maxx> is arbitrary [22:30] #banchilddungeons [22:30] +1 Jiano [22:30] <%mzxrules> =O [22:30] <%mzxrules> =OOOOOOOOO [22:30] <%mzxrules> collection collection delay [22:30] ban CD, and allow all bottles [22:30] <@Cosmo> if we make srl leaderboards we should ban all categories that dont beat the game [22:30] <@Cosmo> lolo [22:30] speedrunning as a hobby is arbitrary [22:30] maxx thats why i think alttp's 3 minute run should be tracked [22:30] <@maxx> it is [22:30] even tho it is shit category [22:30] <%RingRush> I agree @ cosmo [22:30] <@maxx> on zsr [22:30] <@Cosmo> yes poodle, it is, but mayb if we could all agree on what WR means then it could be more serious lol [22:31] <@Cosmo> 11k people watching sig getting WR, clearly people care if its actually competitive [22:31] <%RingRush> I'm fine with like, different endings [22:31] people were saying before that it shouldnt be tracked [22:31] <@jiano> ity is tracked even though no1 in the world cares about it [22:31] <%RingRush> but if it isn't an ending it isn't a category [22:31] <%RingRush> it is a race goal [22:31] <@maxx> boris: http://zeldaspeedruns.com/leaderboards/alttp/glitched [22:31] i know [22:31] <@maxx> o ok [22:31] im saying people were saying earlier [22:31] that it shouldnt be tracked [22:31] <@jiano> ya if it doesnt beat game its a race goal agreed [22:31] and i disagree [22:32] <+Kryssstal> nico lists stuff like master sword at least [22:32] <+zodiac> race goals can be super competitive though [22:32] you guys just don't want to recognize all bottles as a legit category [22:32] <+zodiac> its fun to track [22:32] i say we abandon the whole attachment to "wr". there's leaderboards that have spots, and you have the best time if you're number 1. adding some title to it beyond that seems pointless and almost pretentious imo [22:32] people will never stop asking [22:32] "whats the wr" [22:32] <%mzxrules> guys, is this known... [22:32] <@Cosmo> that might be right @ poodle but thats also true @ boris [22:32] I'm #1 on the leaderboards, and I have the WR sounds different to other people [22:32] <%RingRush> "World Record" is the single greatest advertising thing [22:32] <%RingRush> speedrunning has [22:32] <+zodiac> yea [22:32] <+zodiac> u gotta keep world record how else are you going to get viewers [22:32] <%mzxrules> If you perform collection delay, and you jump off a ledge and have a bomb explode in your hand [22:33] <+zodiac> FREE IPAD only works for so long [22:33] <%RingRush> it gives it some kind of meaning to people not in the community [22:33] <%mzxrules> you get like permanent collection delay with king zora [22:33] :o [22:33] you can't even talk to him? [22:33] <%mzxrules> no uh [22:33] honestly, there is something about having a time that hasn't been beaten [22:33] <+Kryssstal> who has the state fair blue ribbon [22:33] <%RingRush> which state [22:33] <%mzxrules> if you throw a bomb / talk to him [22:33] <+Kryssstal> idaho idk [22:33] <%mzxrules> you get the item [22:33] lol [22:34] <+zodiac> how do you even do collection delay in oot [22:34] how far away can you go from him and still get the item [22:34] <+zodiac> i have never done it [22:34] mash a button [22:34] <%mzxrules> as long as you're facing him [22:34] <@maxx> if you have ever ever ever tried to talk about speedrunning to someone not familiar with the community they ALWAYS ask about the WR, and they always mean any%, and they always have no idea what "any%" means [22:34] <%mzxrules> you can pretty much get it [22:34] so as long as he is loaded? [22:34] you can't just abandon calling something the WR. somebody will have the best time, and the same interests of having/getting the WR will still apply [22:34] <%mzxrules> more or less [22:34] <@jiano> any% is a shitty name that will live forever [22:34] <%RingRush> ^ [22:34] ^ :( [22:35] <@Cosmo> i noticd for some sda pages [22:35] <%RingRush> no use trying to change it, lets just realize it h as the same standing as "HESS" [22:35] <@Cosmo> the use the term [22:35] <@Cosmo> "Best time" [22:35] <@Cosmo> which seems pretty good [22:35] yeah but [22:35] <@jiano> yeah wr exists, its just a matter of what is the true wr [22:35] <@Cosmo> yea jiano [22:35] its hard to say that as a category name, idk [22:35] <%mzxrules> i prefer "Fastest Route" [22:35] i think we should totally disregard the whole "wr" thing and focus on rules for the leaderboards, because that's what's important [22:35] <%RingRush> but please stop using the word "glitched" for faster than any% [22:35] <%RingRush> ugh that bugs me [22:35] agreed RingRush [22:35] <+zodiac> well unless some kid is in a cave playing oot somewhere then theres going to be a world record [22:35] <+Kryssstal> best time on SDA means segmented [22:35] <+Kryssstal> and if you like segmented runs you are dumMmmM [22:35] <@Cosmo> LOL [22:35] <@Cosmo> segmented heh ehehehhe [22:35] <@Cosmo> anyway [22:35] i hate explaining to ppl [22:35] <@Cosmo> I think we should figure out [22:35] that any% is not fastest alttp category [22:35] haha [22:35] <@Cosmo> if "WR" is a label we want to give out to runs [22:35] but like [22:35] "category" [22:35] <@Cosmo> or just not do that [22:35] idk [22:35] pydoyks was practically playing in a cave [22:36] <+zodiac> a cave with internet and streaming though [22:36] <%RingRush> No Major Skips/No Major Glitches/ whatever youw ant to call it and any% is better than any% and glitched [22:36] <@maxx> i am strongly opposed to the removal of the "wr" label [22:36] ^^ [22:36] <@maxx> it is the most important thing by a lot to new people / casual viewers [22:36] <@jiano> ppl are just throwing WR onto everything these days [22:36] thx maxx [22:36] agreed @ maxx [22:36] <@jiano> so its silly [22:36] obviously when ppl ask what WR is they're asking about #1 on the leaderboards. [22:36] asking "but should #1 on the leaderboards not be what is referred to as 'wr' by people outside the community? or are our rules too arbitrary and forgiving?" is... idk it shouldn't be part of the discussion imo. it's unimportant. [22:36] <@maxx> and de-emphasising that makes it less approachable [22:36] <%RingRush> Guys I got a 8:55 in get key 1 and free diddy [wr] [22:37] what if there isnt a leaderboard [22:37] is there no wr [22:37] RingRush thats a race category, and we just discussed race cateogires :P [22:37] <@Cosmo> thats a good point maxx [22:37] <@maxx> i am not sure we are debating the same thing poodleskirt [22:37] ringrush you so good [22:37] according to srl I have the free all kongs world record for dk64 [22:37] <@jiano> the question poddleskirt is, is it the "emulator wr" or the "n64 wr" or "jp n64 wr" or what [22:37] maybe not... [22:37] <+Kryssstal> wr just means "best known time to our knowledge" but the problem is that people throw it around without having enough knowledge [22:37] <@maxx> i do not think that there should be things at the top of the leaderboards that are not "wr" [22:37] oh lol [22:37] <+Kryssstal> see 5000 videos on youtube saying (WR) even though they aren't [22:37] <@maxx> i think if the community decides something is "not legit" (emu or inject vc or whatever) [22:38] i have 8 key wr so good [22:38] <@maxx> that it should not be on the leaderboard at all [22:38] <+zodiac> oot wr in 1:06 by pokey [22:38] <%RingRush> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7KAC4hlByTg [22:38] <+zodiac> my fave video [22:38] there are also vids on youtube that say WR that are just outdated wrs [22:38] <%RingRush> comments lol [22:38] <@Cosmo> ok kryssstal but if we had it standardized and we got reputable and a lot of ppl would update it then I guess we could get away with it ? [22:38] i believe ZFG's oot run is one of those [22:38] <@maxx> #1 leaderboard time should def always be "wr" [22:38] <+Kryssstal> cosmo is walter day!!! [22:38] <%RingRush> some dude claims wr and like every other comment is posting a faster time [22:38] hahaha [22:38] <@Cosmo> lol [22:38] cosmo day walter [22:38] cdw [22:39] lol [22:39] almodst my initials :p [22:39] i remember a guy on yt named JReflex or something and he would speedrun mario levels and put WR on every video out of assumption [22:39] <@Cosmo> so kryssstal and poodle are opposed to the term WR then [22:39] <+Kryssstal> idc that much lol [22:39] <+Kryssstal> at all [22:39] <+zodiac> i think its more they dont care [22:39] <+Kryssstal> so don't worry about it [22:39] i think separating WRs into platforms would be a little silly and wouldn't catch on too well [22:39] honestly, with youtube [22:39] if it has Shit quality, its not WR [22:40] <%RingRush> n64 wr and vc wr just sounds terrible lol [22:40] sm3dl :( [22:40] but yeah, like kryssstal says, as far as the term WR itself goes i could care less [22:40] what do you mean shit quality [22:40] most videos of WR have good quality [22:40] <+Kryssstal> when someone asks what a "wr" is, I think they should just be directed to the best known, reputable run [22:40] <@maxx> i think "wr" is so important that i put a section called "world records" on the new zsr homepage [22:40] <@maxx> that shows the fastest times from the leaderboards [22:40] <@maxx> for each game [22:40] lmao [22:40] <@jiano> heres a fun one: tww english, japanese, with tuner, without tuner [22:40] sm3dl quality :( [22:40] <%RingRush> though I also think like "no tuner" [22:40] <%RingRush> is the dumbest [22:40] <%RingRush> same as versions: you have to play the fastest [22:40] ""vc world record? that's bullshit" - ingx24 2011" - arkanum 2011 [22:40] <+Kryssstal> language separation seems really bad but idk [22:40] Why doesn't MM have English any% and J any% [22:40] <%RingRush> if you don't have it then you don't have the record [22:40] and TWW does [22:41] qwerty has the oot any% no ww english world record [22:41] <%RingRush> the english record is like...fit for some sort of filter on the leaderboard but probably nothing more [22:41] <@maxx> the only reason tww is separated by language is because cosmo did not want to overwrite his english time with his first J time that beat it [22:41] what a beast [22:41] <@maxx> lmao [22:41] <@jiano> its funny though because english without tuner is by far the most popular [22:41] imo, wr should be only the absoutely fastest time for that specific game. the lang/versions shouldn't matter. [22:41] <@jiano> so the community would prob pick that right ? [22:41] <+zodiac> brian - what about games with big version differences on language though [22:41] <@Cosmo> well most ppl who run only have english + no gba so they just run that [22:41] <+zodiac> that are more than text [22:41] it is the most popular but the record for it is arguably one of the least optimized [22:41] <@Cosmo> ppl who are more serious get J and gba [22:41] well idk [22:42] <%RingRush> most people who run don't think they will get the wr though so its okay [22:42] <%RingRush> anyone who is serious about a record gets the equipment [22:42] <%RingRush> or else they give up on that record [22:42] <@jiano> yeah i agree with what rr said [22:42] yeah its about how serious are you in wind waker's case i geus... [22:42] <+zodiac> that should be how it works but it isnt rr [22:42] <@jiano> and thats why i believe fastest should always be the used version [22:42] The language seperation just seems silly [22:42] <@Cosmo> i think claiming that there are 4 wind waker world records is silly [22:42] <@Cosmo> but i did separate it cause of issues with filtering system [22:43] Unless there are major glitch differences between the languages [22:43] there are 4 wind waker world records and cosmo has all of them HEH [22:43] <+zodiac> no tuner is fine as a race goal and tracked on srl, but i dont see the point on zsr leaderboards [22:43] oh waiat he only has 3 [22:43] <%RingRush> definitely have a filter, no reason to remove it [22:43] lol [22:43] <@jiano> cosmo, wasnt the english run "better" than japanese for al ong time though? [22:43] i think that if it is obvious that the overall play of one run was better but the other was only faster from a version difference or something not related to quality of play that the other should still be considered the world record [22:43] <+Kryssstal> separating the most optimal speedrun version from more accessible versions just makes it annoying to look at full list of times [22:43] <@Cosmo> yes jiano [22:43] <@jiano> its shit like that which makes all this retarded [22:43] i think that it's really easiest to just define WR as the fastest time for a game [22:43] Kosmicd12 i think thats a really bad way to go [22:43] <+Kryssstal> like if I were to look up tww why would I care about the best "english no tuner" run [22:43] no need for stupid exceptions [22:43] <@Cosmo> anoter example is sig's run is "better" than a VC run that could be potentially a lower time [22:44] im not saying like u vs j [22:44] <@Cosmo> yea I see that krystal and we should fix it somehow [22:44] <%RingRush> its not because the vc run is faster [22:44] <%RingRush> if this were sda I'd vouch for sig's run [22:44] <%RingRush> but for a leaderboard the vc one is faster [22:44] im saying if someone beat another recofrd by like 10 seconds when their version is minutes faster [22:44] doesnt matter, you should always run in the best conditions as possible [22:45] <%RingRush> by saying sig's run is better than a faster, vc time, you are just taking the sda approach of comparing quality over final time which I'm pretty sure many people here dont' like [22:45] <+Kryssstal> if someone wanted to beat sig they should play both vc and n64 then it'd be pretty solved tbh [22:45] <+Kryssstal> same thing applies to dkc1 [22:45] i think all the "this run was better but had a worse time" stuff is silly [22:45] If somebody is serious enough about getting the record then they would go out and get the equipment that they need to get it [22:45] lets all do wr attempts on iQue i guess [22:45] <+zodiac> rr: does sda actually do that [22:45] it's a speed run, not a "good play" run or whatever [22:45] <+Kryssstal> someone who wants to beat riz should beat riz on jp and us dkc1 and make any debates moot [22:45] i agree with poodleskirt [22:45] <%RingRush> zodiac: yes, you can't get a record just by playing on a fster version for sda [22:45] yes zodiac they do [22:45] <@maxx> i also agree with poodle there [22:45] <@jiano> thats hard krystal lol [22:45] <@Cosmo> i think poodle is right [22:45] they also rejected a bk run that was faster than their current best time [22:45] <@jiano> vc and n64 are waaaaay diff [22:45] <@maxx> like sva's first run that beat ing's [22:46] the rejected run used new strats or something that were faster but overall the play was sloppier [22:46] why are we discussing about sda? [22:46] <@maxx> that's ridiculous haha [22:46] sda is stupid [22:46] <@maxx> faster time rejected [22:46] maxx with the time difference between the 2 runs i think its obvious that sva's is overall faster lol [22:46] <@maxx> wtflol [22:46] <@maxx> Kosmicd12: sva beat ing's run twice [22:46] o [22:46] what was the first time [22:46] <@Cosmo> the first time it was not clear [22:46] 1:51 or something [22:46] <@maxx> his first one that beat ing's was not much faster [22:46] ALSO [22:46] ing's run [22:46] <%RingRush> because if people agree sda is stupid then they agree that we shouldn't care whether a run was vc or n64 [22:47] single segment [22:47] <@maxx> yeah [22:47] he didnt reset to skip the cutscenes [22:47] <@maxx> vs sva's RTA [22:47] <@maxx> so sva had resets, VC, and JP [22:47] <@maxx> on his side [22:47] <@maxx> vs ing's no resets, n64, english [22:47] <%RingRush> *sda is stupid for caring about quality over time [22:47] practically different categories Kappa [22:47] <@jiano> it sounds like the only thing up in the air is emulator vs console [22:47] yeah jiano i was wondering where the argument had gone or was going lol [22:47] <@jiano> i would never agree with like BK or cv64 over a console run [22:47] emu is really sticky but i don't think that differences are big enough to warrant bans [22:48] the rules should not point toward emulator being the preferred version to run on [22:48] bottom line [22:48] emus do invite more people to play though [22:48] but vc is an emulator! DansGame [22:47] <+Kryssstal> entertainment over time has some bearing otherwise no one would run lttp without oob [22:48] <+Kryssstal> they would just do the 2 min run [22:48] <+Runnerguy2489> SMOKE EYEBALL FROG EVERYDAY!!! [22:48] <+zodiac> ban eyeball frog on n64!!! [22:48] <+zodiac> ban all eyeball frogs [22:48] <+Kryssstal> you can't say the 2 min run is "way overboard" when you also have the mentality that "only fastest thing possible matters" [22:48] <%RingRush> remove bgs from oot 100% definition problem solevd [22:48] <@jiano> i think its less about entertainment and more about skill krystal [22:48] <@jiano> from players pov [22:48] <@Cosmo> this isnt about OoT RR [22:48] lol @ ringrush [22:48] <@Cosmo> about all games [22:48] then it's not a true 100% [22:49] <%RingRush> yeah I know that was a joke lol [22:49] <%RingRush> that shouldn't be removed [22:49] you still have something in your adult trade slot so its still 100% amirite [22:49] even if bgs is removed from definition [22:49] i assume gk would be counted in that instance... [22:49] u still need claim check! [22:49] <%RingRush> alttp is so weird [22:49] <%RingRush> I compare alttp with spyro enter the dragonfly [22:49] <%RingRush> both have a long normal game and a 3 minute any% [22:49] <%RingRush> yet one people only care about the nonglitched, one people only care about glitched [22:50] alttp glitched [22:50] takes literally no skill [22:50] <+zodiac> well thats just cuz no one cares about spyro in the first place [22:50] LA and LADX are the same way [22:50] a 5 year old could get under 3 minutes [22:50] <+Kryssstal> I've never heard of anyone caring about lttp 3min run [22:50] i found a way to beat space chimps in under 2 minutes, must be best category ye? 1 luck based boss fight is all it is [22:50] <+zodiac> ive never even heard of space chimps, maybe it is the best category [22:50] <%RingRush> I think whether people like glitched runs are based on whether or not they are more fun [22:50] speedrunning is dumb in general [22:50] LADX actually takes skill [22:50] lets play mafia [22:50] <%RingRush> alttp is (to people playing it) a fun game [22:51] zodiac u should watch marathons that involve monkeys :( [22:51] <%RingRush> spyro is never a fun game [22:51] brb speedrunning king's bounty [22:51] whats the deal with alttp? if sub 3 mins is the quickest, then so it be. people can compete in arbitrary categories if they dont like the any% [22:51] I know people who care about the 3min run in the 'you can do that?' sense [22:51] i think if you're going to make a self-updating (or wiki-style) set of leaderboards for all the games people want to speedrun, the only things that should be banned are things that none of the people who play the game would plan on doing anyway [22:51] <@jiano> ya arbitrary categories are fine [22:51] <+Kryssstal> "any%" is dumb term and the 3min lttp run is "EG" not "any%" [22:51] <@jiano> and are often the preferred ones [22:51] ........... [22:52] and deal with in-community "legitimacy" issues on a case by case basis. because they will almost always happen. or they will never happen [22:52] <%RingRush> any% = fastest completion always [22:52] <+zodiac> we are locked into a lot of shitty terms [22:52] <%RingRush> at least it should be, it isn't now [22:52] <+zodiac> it kind of sucks [22:52] ^ [22:52] <%RingRush> but for leaderboards I'd say any% is always the fastest category no matter how glitched [22:52] <%RingRush> even if that is 1 minute for pokemon yellow [22:52] i agree with RingRush [22:52] Kryssstal. If im correct Any% means Pure speed. As in fastest completion. So Imo Yes it may be dumb. But EG alttp is true Any% [22:52] any% is what any% is according to the people who play the game [22:52] <@Cosmo> i think I would label that as "Save Corruption" @ yellow [22:52] <@maxx> strongly agree with RingRush [22:53] <@maxx> but w/e [22:53] shouldnt the name any% define what it is [22:53] <@maxx> yes [22:53] i would label the other run "no save corruption" [22:53] <%RingRush> ^ [22:53] <+Kryssstal> then go tell the super metroid people that GT code is "any%" and not "GT Code" [22:53] <%RingRush> what boris said [22:53] <+Kryssstal> because that beats the game faster but no one cares [22:53] Kryssstal thats honestly what i think [22:53] isn't the save corruption runs TAS specific? [22:53] I was afk for a while how is this debat is going? [22:53] <%RingRush> it isn't about what people care about it is about what is fastest [22:53] <@Cosmo> were all discussing leaderboards still and whats good and whats not [22:53] snes games are fucked [22:53] in terms of categories lol [22:53] Kryssstal Thats different because it includes a code that was intended for the devs. [22:53] how about we go back to the real issue- emu? [22:54] glitches arent intended [22:54] sda classifies it as a cheat code [22:54] <%RingRush> though it does make sense to have a loewr bound [22:54] so they ban it [22:54] <+Kryssstal> why is a code different than pressing a button to load the ending [22:54] LMAO [22:54] <%RingRush> like if you could enter a password to get to the final boss in a game [22:54] <%RingRush> I would not call that any% [22:54] <%RingRush> so I don't know how to phrase a lower bound [22:54] <%RingRush> of what qualifies as any% [22:54] hmmm... [22:54] without cheats? [22:54] <@Cosmo> lets not use the term any% if theres no % counter : D [22:54] I love how SDA doesn't like LADX any% because its ' Extremely glitched '. YET they allow Save corruption Pokemon Yellow. [22:54] SM has % counter :( [22:54] <%RingRush> cosmo we tried that with HESS [22:55] <%RingRush> it never works [22:55] can we just change "any%" to "quickest game completion" [22:55] or something [22:55] <+zodiac> beat the game [22:55] <+Kryssstal> LA screenwarp runs would be accepted [22:55] <%RingRush> people just stick to same lingo :( [22:55] how about just "completion" [22:55] Fenrikaz we could go on for days about what SDA does and doesnt do lol [22:55] <+Kryssstal> SDA would accept a lot of things now [22:55] what about actual in-game cheats... do we say the competitive category is "any% no cheats" [22:55] ingame cheats are fine? [22:55] <%RingRush> BT cheat run hype [22:55] <%RingRush> best BT category [22:55] ingame cheats are fine if you're a dirty jp dk64 player !!!! [22:56] <@Cosmo> i think creating categories is easier than the emu ruling [22:56] Kryssstal what are they accepting now that they weren't before, besides single segment with resets? [22:56] test [22:56] <+pokey> r u guys still talking about dead zone [22:56] <+Kryssstal> they would accept lttp 3min but who carez [22:56] <+pokey> i changed my deadzone for oot and i bet RG did too :D [22:57] hello? D: [22:57] i think banning emulator from any leaderboard where people run the game on emulator regularly is a bad idea [22:57] not sure i could AE w/o my massive deadzone [22:57] since people would still play on emulator, obviously. it would just cause a rift [22:57] <+pokey> n64 adapter for VC can change the deadzone between 2ish choices [22:57] hi [22:57] <+pokey> elm we still can't see you [22:57] <%RingRush> Fastest Time [in general rules - this bans all codes and passwords], Fastest Time without [Save Corruption, Warping Glitches, etc], 100% (full completion?), low% (when applicable), other random categories that make no sense like 16star, BT with cheats, w/e [22:57] <@jiano> poodle but what about cases in games where emu is clearly faster [22:57] <+Kryssstal> ban n64 and later to fix issues [22:57] <+zodiac> wait what pokey [22:57] <+zodiac> how do you change deadzone [22:57] <+Kryssstal> only run old games [22:57] <+pokey> look at the website [22:57] <+zodiac> you can change sens but that doesnt touch deadzone does it? [22:58] imo, just make ruleset for every game [22:58] <+pokey> changing sens is changing the deadzone [22:58] if a game's emulation isnt an issue [22:58] then allow it [22:58] okay, as far as that goes, i really don't care if emulator is faster by what would probably never be an amount of time that separated 1 and 2 on a leaderboard. [22:58] <@jiano> console players having to play emu should never happen [22:58] if it's an issue, then don't permit it [22:58] i have no kneejerk reaction to that [22:58] <+pokey> the legendary ingx24 told me this so it must be true [22:58] if emulator is faster, people should play on emulator. [22:58] <+zodiac> he told me it didnt [22:58] @Jiano. Than add times from VC onto it. Its simple [22:58] <+pokey> LOL [22:58] <+zodiac> fuck ingx24 and his LIES [22:58] <@jiano> BK is a good example i believe? [22:58] <@jiano> emulator is way faster [22:58] <@Cosmo> if emu is faster then its inaccurate and unfair to ppl who are on console [22:58] <%RingRush> the thing is anyone can m ake an emu [22:58] <@Cosmo> but at the same time a lot of ppl use emu these days [22:58] <%RingRush> that is even faster [22:59] okay let me be more specific [22:59] <+pokey> VC is faster so its unfair for n64 :O [22:59] <%RingRush> I can make an emu that goes 200% speed [22:59] because i can't speak outside the scope of oot really [22:59] But that would only be to the extent of the best players [22:59] Lets say VC OOT has 0.06 load times and N64 has 0.1... Take out all the VC load time data and input 0.1's for them [22:59] <@jiano> obv thered be a specific emulator allowed [22:59] <%RingRush> whereas not everyone can make an official vc release [22:59] just make it by game... [22:59] like, bk= emu banned [22:59] oot= emu not banned [22:59] if the difference is one that would not likely ever be the difference between 1 and 2 on a leaderboard then leave it [22:59] if it's like, play on emu and crush all other platforms, then yeah, ban it [23:00] Fenrikaz you cant accurately compensate for differences in amount of lag vs lag reduction strats [23:00] or whatever [23:00] <@jiano> what about the case of oot, where emu is only better in 100%? just ban emu in that category? [23:00] any penalty you apply to a certain version is gonna be more sketchy than the version itself [23:00] can you use a ratio between vc time and console time? [23:00] is it better by signficant amount of time? [23:00] no, i don't see the point of banning emu in 100% [23:00] <%RingRush> someone is going to get ique oot [23:00] <%RingRush> and fuck everything up [23:00] <%RingRush> lol [23:00] <@jiano> i see [23:00] i say you let it be, and see if anyone ever takes 100% on emulator by a super small amount of time [23:00] just destroy all iques [23:00] natalyahasdied has ique oot [23:01] compared to the top n64 run [23:01] he does? wow [23:01] because that likely won't happen imo [23:01] <%RingRush> stuff like ique I'm worried about [23:01] <@Cosmo> ique is a good point heh [23:01] <%RingRush> since those are not readily available so you can't just "get one" [23:01] <+pokey> aleck ermit also has ique [23:01] i agree with poodle [23:01] <@jiano> so pretty much if vc exists then emulator is ok too [23:01] <+pokey> he will get teh dampe wr :O [23:01] <@jiano> it sounds like ur saying [23:01] <+zodiac> someone here [23:01] vc is an emulator [23:01] <+zodiac> said something about someone they knew getting an ique and planning to do runs on it [23:01] so.. [23:01] vc is an official release of the game [23:01] <@jiano> vc is an emulator created by nintendo [23:01] <%RingRush> pydoyks you're done [23:01] <%RingRush> ique will destroy you [23:02] everyone who plays on vc will have the exact same settings and lag and all that shit [23:02] its not like emu where hardware differences and plugins and shit make difference between emu players [23:02] it is standardized [23:02] <+zodiac> even people on n64 dont have that with version differences lol [23:02] oh yeah well you guys soft mod your wiis to play it so it's totz not legit hax hax hax hax [23:02] Jiano. Doesn't VC have lag reduction and stuff? Is it not different from the original [23:02] <+zodiac> poodle idk why you dont get console [23:02] <+pokey> what if i have jp console [23:02] <+pokey> and i flew to japan to buy oot [23:02] <+zodiac> you own at the game and play it tons why wouldnt you want real version [23:02] i have console. i have every version we play it on [23:03] i prefer emulator because practice is better [23:03] @Zodiac. He does have a Jap cart he just prefers Emulator so he can practice more. [23:03] <%RingRush> poodle isn't the only emulator player though if we are talking about more than just zelda [23:03] <%RingRush> there are a lot of record holders on emulator [23:03] <@jiano> u can practice on emu and play on console [23:03] <@jiano> a lot of ppl do [23:03] <+zodiac> just seems so weird to me to dump that much time into the game and not do runs on an official version [23:03] why has this turned into trying to convince me to not play on emu lol [23:03] <+pokey> wat if poodle's tv has input lag [23:03] its not just you lol [23:04] i don't think anything is illegitimate about it, playing on console would be inconvenient so i won't [23:04] Hey Jiano [23:04] <@jiano> hey [23:04] <@Cosmo> i will never play commadner keen 4 on actual DOS [23:04] <@Cosmo> but i enjoy doing runs of it [23:04] Don't you do your Alttp runs on a SNES emulator for the wii? [23:04] <%RingRush> I will never play MSSCWACEW on an actual DS [23:04] <@jiano> yeah [23:04] we've decided that any wii emulators don't count as emulators for the purpose of this discussion because they were officially released by nintendo [23:04] <+zodiac> that acronym [23:04] <+pokey> i play all of my games on the legitimate console [23:05] <+pokey> :D [23:05] <+zodiac> makes me laugh every time [23:05] <@Cosmo> well [23:05] <@jiano> im gonna get a snes when i get better at the game [23:05] sorry i could feel the bias flowing through my fingers when i typed that [23:05] <@jiano> i would never stay on emulator if i got serious [23:05] <@Cosmo> i'd say actual VC is official and the wii homebrew emus are "emulatorS" [23:05] what Cosmo said for sure [23:05] anyone else think the capitalized S had significance there for a second [23:05] <@Cosmo> sorry, wii VC is an emulator, jsut an official emulator [23:05] <@Cosmo> no im bad at typing [23:06] <+zodiac> i pirate all my games to play on legitimate systems [23:06] <+zodiac> is the only way i can handle my life [23:06] <+zodiac> (being eurotrash) [23:06] <%RingRush> if we are only using official versions of the game we should only use official movement techniques like running instead of supersliding!!!!!! [23:06] <@jiano> what about playing roms on original console [23:06] <@jiano> oh sh!t [23:06] supersliding is an official movement technical, it exists in an official version of the game ^_^\ [23:06] *technique [23:07] i don't understand the mentality of "i play on emu but if i got good i would switch to console". nothing has really changed, why bother [23:07] <@Cosmo> thats because of how ppl view it [23:07] <@jiano> because t he console is 100% for sure accurate [23:07] <+zodiac> just seems to me if youre taking the game that seriously youd be wanting to play on the proper official version [23:07] <@Cosmo> some ppl disagree that emu counts, or that it "sort of counts" and is "sketchy" [23:07] <@jiano> and its exactly the same for everyone who uses it [23:07] sound analogous to the situation where sig switched to n64 [23:07] <+Kryssstal> it's good to do whatever run you "retire" with on console, emu is just trainin [23:07] which we all agree was silly [23:08] we agree it was silly because sm64 vc is an official version and thus should be counted [23:08] i understand that